Tis the season....

[Patrick Johndrow]

Must have been the Colt 45

Sometimes a good boot to the ass is just what some people need for Christmas

[badbullgator]

Agree with most of what your saying here. I am not sure I get your point that there not tolerant of others free speech. I really think it is much about nothing. One side puts up a display the other puts up a sign denouncing religion and it is all in a public place. I just think that people are a little more sensitive in this issue than they need to be.

I guess that what I am trying to say is everything does not HAVE to have equal time at EVERY moment in time. Just because someone says Praise the Lord, does not mean someone has to immediately jump up and say all praise to Satan, or all hail Mother Nature. You just don’t have to. More over you don't have to stand up and say your stupid for your beliefs or you are wrong and in this case who knows who is right and who is wrong. Doing this at this time is simple intolerance of others free speech because they feel the need to counter it. This is not about being left out, they can still have free speech and religious freedom, but they don’t have to mock someone else’s to do so.
I’ll say it again; having the right to do something does not make it right to do!



Should have changed the word religion to Freedom.

I think they do it for equal time. Here is a quote from The Foundations Co president Dan Barker: ""Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."

No they do it to say hey look at me, just like the gays. What do you need equal time for exactly, what are you selling? The notion that anyone needs equal time for anything is stupid. You don't always get what you want and for that matter you can have equal time, just not in this way and maybe not at this time. Take the month og June like I said before. I really don't even care if they put something up at Christmas, it is what they put up at Christmas that bothers me and where they put it up. Come on right next to a Christian display? They was no place down the hall or even 75 feet away where they could have displayed their sign> Insensativity on their part.
I would guess that with this statement you support the fairness doctrine as well?

[cotts135]

No they do it to say hey look at me, just like the gays. What do you need equal time for exactly, what are you selling? The notion that anyone needs equal time for anything is stupid. You don't always get what you want and for that matter you can have equal time, just not in this way and maybe not at this time. Take the month og June like I said before. I really don't even care if they put something up at Christmas, it is what they put up at Christmas that bothers me and where they put it up. Come on right next to a Christian display? They was no place down the hall or even 75 feet away where they could have displayed their sign> Insensativity on their part.
I would guess that with this statement you support the fairness doctrine as well?

Absolutely they have an Agenda, that certainly is not news, What's wrong with that?

I think your views on equal time are misguided : To not allow them equal time or access in a public place such as a government building is discriminatory, is that something you favor? I think what is bothersome to those with strong religous believes, and some who don't feel as strongly. is this self righteous view that religion is absolute and just and that anyone who challenges that or doesn't believe in God is a heathen and therefore not worthy of consideration. Theocracies are like this.
Just a hypothetical question here, If for instance an aethist put up a display in a government building decrying religion, would you be opposed to a religious organization putting up a similiar display right next to the Aethist's which feautred what they believe?

Actually I don't believe in the Fairness doctrine for many reasons. Let the people decide what they want to listen to let's not have the Government decide for us. This issue is completely different than what we have been discussing.

[badbullgator]

Absolutely they have an Agenda, that certainly is not news, What's wrong with that?

I think your views on equal time are misguided : To not allow them equal time or access in a public place such as a government building is discriminatory, is that something you favor?

Not at all what I am saying. I am not even saying they do not have the right to do this. I have never said this should not be allowed, what I have said is that this is at the very least insensitive of them. I give no respect to ANYONE or ANY GROUP that takes advantage of another person or groups event, holiday, or what have you to push their own agenda. This includes anti war protesters that stand outside OJ trail with signs, or any other such thing. There is a time and a place for everything. They are more than welcome to put up a display in a state building I really don’t care. Really! My point is they feel the need to rain on someone else’s parade – period. You still have not mentioned why you think it is RIGHT for them to do this now, not because they have the RIGHT, but why is it right right now? Why the push to do this at Christmas for any reason other than to mock Christianity? I don’t see the Hindu’s putting anything up, and if they did I would bet it would be about their own religion rather than to know the Jews, Christians, or even atheist for that matter. I think it is you that is misguided on what my views are and you are making something that I did not say an issue. Please show me where I EVER said it should not be allowed. I believe my statement several times now has been “just because it is a right, does not make it right” Do you not understand what I mean by that? You have the right to do many things but you (or at least most people with any values) know that sometimes you just don’t exercise that right. You have the right to say you hate white folks, but maybe the best time to express that right is not when you meet your future in-laws who just so happen to be white. Back to the point, please pull up and show me where I ever suggested discrimination or not ALLOWING anyone to exercise their rights. I have advocated people and groups using restraint and being sensitive to others, but never banning anyone form exercising their right.
I also never said they could not have equal time, but I did suggest that they take, not be forced, but take their equal time at another time in the sprit of kindness and respect for others.

I think what is bothersome to those with strong religous believes, and some who don't feel as strongly. is this self righteous view that religion is absolute and just and that anyone who challenges that or doesn't believe in God is a heathen and therefore not worthy of consideration. Theocracies are like this.


Please don’t presume that I fall into one of those groups. You know nothing of my religious beliefs or lack there of. IF this was not directed at me please disregard, however, by the same token the non religious also feel that their view is absolute. Not a single one of us knows for sure who is right and who is wrong in this debate. The atheist feel just as self righteous as Christians and this is a clear example of that.

Just a hypothetical question here, If for instance an aethist put up a display in a government building decrying religion, would you be opposed to a religious organization putting up a similiar display right next to the Aethist's which feautred what they believe?

Yes I would have a problem with Christians, Muslims, Hindu’s, doing the same to atheist for the very same reasons mentioned above. I am however, not totally against the atheist or Christians putting up competing signs or what have you in a timeframe that does not conflict with either’s “holy days” but it goes back to the respect and consideration for ones fellow man. If the atheist do in fact have a specific holiday they celebrate then by all means I would be against Christians, Jews or whoever basically protesting the atheist. If it just happens to be a day that has no special relevance to either side, by all means let the debate roll on. Don’t rain on someone else’s parade just to make yourself feel better. Here is a crib note for you…not saying it should not be ALLOWED, just that each should respect the other.

Actually I don't believe in the Fairness doctrine for many reasons. Let the people decide what they want to listen to let's not have the Government decide for us. This issue is completely different than what we have been discussing.

Not at all different when you bring "equal time into the debate". How ever said everybody gets equal time? Discrimination and equal time are two different things

[YardleyLabs]

Not at all what I am saying. I am not even saying they do not have the right to do this. I have never said this should not be allowed, what I have said is that this is at the very least insensitive of them. I give no respect to ANYONE or ANY GROUP that takes advantage of another person or groups event, holiday, or what have you to push their own agenda. This includes anti war protesters that stand outside OJ trail with signs, or any other such thing. There is a time and a place for everything. They are more than welcome to put up a display in a state building I really don’t care. Really! My point is they feel the need to rain on someone else’s parade – period.

[Please excuse the excerpt]

How do you feel about anti-abortion protesters outside of an abortion clinic?

When a particular activity is the reason for your protest, it doesn't make sense for your protest to be made anywhere except where the action is. I'm not saying this because I agree with the sign that was posted. The fact is that I am an atheist but I can't understand any reason why an atheist would care what another person believes as long as it doesn't seek to impose its beliefs on the government of our country. However, as a matter of free speech I believe they have the right to place their sign where it will be seen and make their point as long as it doesn't interfere with the equally free rights of expression of those putting up the nativity display. Those putting up the nativity display always have the option of placing their display on private property where there is no need to provide equal access. Why should they be using public property at all?

[Hoosier]

My question is what are the Atheist's trying to accomplish with this campaign. Christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and are trying to keep people out of Hell. Whether or not you believe the same way, that shouldn't bother you. Atheist on the other hand seem to believe in nothing. I can't see what product they are trying to promote with these signs. Why would it be important to you to have other people come join you in your belief of nothing. So in my opinion the intent was only to cast a shadow on others celebration.

[badbullgator]

[Please excuse the excerpt]

How do you feel about anti-abortion protesters outside of an abortion clinic?

First of all I don’t protest myself and I take no stance on abortion. Do I feel it is at the very least insensitive that they stand outside yelling at women because they do not believe the same thing as the protestors? Yes I do. Do they have that right? Yes they do. Would I chose to do it there? No and personally I think they are asshats for doing so. I try not to push my personal beliefs on others. I may think you are stupid for yours, but that is ok too, you can think I am stupid for the same reason it is ok with me. Kind of a little red herring here eh......

When a particular activity is the reason for your protest, it doesn't make sense for your protest to be made anywhere except where the action is.

So why are they protesting Christanity or Christmas? I thought this was about free speech not a protest.

I'm not saying this because I agree with the sign that was posted. The fact is that I am an atheist but I can't understand any reason why an atheist would care what another person believes as long as it doesn't seek to impose its beliefs on the government of our country.

And we agree on that.

However, as a matter of free speech I believe they have the right to place their sign where it will be seen and make their point as long as it doesn't interfere with the equally free rights of expression of those putting up the nativity display.

And again I agree, but as stated before if this is about free speech why do it now? You can have equal time, but why today? What is wrong with next month....? I never said this interfears with the rights of those displaying the nativity, I said it shows intolerence towrads those how put it up. I am sure that the atheist can get their message out just about anytime, it is just mean sprited to do it today and right next to the nativivty. Again they have the right but that does not mean it is right.

Those putting up the nativity display always have the option of placing their display on private property where there is no need to provide equal access.

Yes they do and many are on private property. Again just becasue you have the right doesn't make it right. I would have no problem with a sign or display from the atheist that did not specifically disparage Christianity as this one does. Since your an atheist I'll ask you is it your goal or is there an atheist doctrine that says you need to disparage all religion or is that just something you do for the fun of it? Again, why is equal time at the same time. If I get to swing on the swingset for an hour this morning and you get to swing for an hour this afternoon is that not equal time. Would you rather sit in my lap so we can have equal time at the same time?

Why should they be using public property at all?

I very much agree. Why should either group be doing so?

I still think your missing the point. I believe in free speech and everybodies right to exercise it. I just know that my parents taught me to respect others beliefs and feelings and I feel that this is a case of not respecting one another. Do as you want I don't care but don't worry about what I do as long as you don't degrage me for doing what I like and I don't degrade you for doing what you like.

[Hoosier]

Would it impede on someones freedom of religion to put a sign on public property that taunts another religion. I think in this case it may. Using a public forum in an attempt to discredit someones religion. Your right to throw a punch ends at the tip of my nose

[YardleyLabs]

My question is what are the Atheist's trying to accomplish with this campaign. Christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and are trying to keep people out of Hell. Whether or not you believe the same way, that shouldn't bother you. Atheist on the other hand seem to believe in nothing. I can't see what product they are trying to promote with these signs. Why would it be important to you to have other people come join you in your belief of nothing. So in my opinion the intent was only to cast a shadow on others celebration.

As I noted, I tend to agree with you. I have no interest in "converting" anyone to my beliefs. However, to provide a slightly different perspective, I can understand the perspective of an ignored minority wanting, every now and then, the yell out "we're here."

Corey noted this in an earlier post, comparing the atheists to gays saying "Hey, look at me." Both share the fact that they are minorities who are constantly being told by the majority that they have no reason to exist. The fact is that both do exist and have every right to exist.

After being denigrated and swept into a corner on an almost daily basis by representatives of the majority, I can understand the occasional desire to stand up and say "I'm here and, by the way, I think I'm right just as you believe that you are. Deal with it." Do I feel the need to do the same? No. However, every time I hear someone say that I should only express my beliefs where it will not upset the majority, I start thinking it may be time to buy my own bullhorn. I've never seen those in the "majority" apologize for expressing their beliefs in a manner that affects me.

[badbullgator]

My question is what are the Atheist's trying to accomplish with this campaign. Christians believe in Heaven and Hell, and are trying to keep people out of Hell. Whether or not you believe the same way, that shouldn't bother you. Atheist on the other hand seem to believe in nothing. I can't see what product they are trying to promote with these signs. Why would it be important to you to have other people come join you in your belief of nothing. So in my opinion the intent was only to cast a shadow on others celebration.

Good point I don’t believe in ghost, so why would I go to a cemetery or even a haunted house at Halloween and put up a sign denouncing ghost? If you don’t believe in something why do you care that others do?