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Thread: Tis the season....

  1. #61
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbullgator View Post
    Good point I don’t believe in ghost, so why would I go to a cemetery or even a haunted house at Halloween and put up a sign denouncing ghost? If you don’t believe in something why do you care that others do?
    If I stand up in public and say God does not exist and you stand up and say he does, am I attacking you, are you attacking me, or are we both stating our beliefs?

  2. #62
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by badbullgator
    Good point I don’t believe in ghost, so why would I go to a cemetery or even a haunted house at Halloween and put up a sign denouncing ghost? If you don’t believe in something why do you care that others do?

    If I stand up in public and say God does not exist and you stand up and say he does, am I attacking you, are you attacking me, or are we both stating our beliefs?
    Clue me in. How does that statement have anything to do with anybody attacking anybody? Use you reading skills. IF you don’t believe in something why make an issue out of it? I don’t believe in ghost, why put up a sign saying they don’t exist if I don’t believe in them? What does this have to do with your question?

    Now taking your question with out relating it to that quote… No neither of us is attacking anyone. If, however, you chose to come to a church and stand up and say there is no God the implication is that yes you are attacking an entire group that is their to practice what they believe in. Same is true if a Christian comes to your meeting place while you guys are discussing what you don’t believe in and says there is a God, the implication is that they are attacking your beliefs, but then again you don’t believe in anything……….
    There is a time and a place for everything. You are in Starbucks and someone says there is a God and you then say there is no God, hey it is all good. Time and place, respect, and acceptance. NOTE: I am not implying that Christians are accepting, in fact far form it, bad eggs in every group.

    I think I am pretty much done with this debate. In summary

    I believe everyone has the right to free speech and religion
    I believe everyone has the right to be recognized for what they are
    I believe that people should respect one another and not uses someone else’s “special” time or event to disparage that group.
    I believe that most people’s parents taught them manners and that many people have forgot about not hurting others feelings for no real reason.
    I believe that just because it is your right does not always make it right or appropriate.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  3. #63
    Senior Member Steve Amrein's Avatar
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    Speaking of "Gay" I called in Gay today . Not in support, but a front is moving thru and I was thinking it would push some ducks
    "Communism only works in Heaven, where they don't need it, and in Hell, where they already have it" Ronald Reagan

  4. #64
    Senior Member K.Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    If I stand up in public and say God does not exist and you stand up and say he does, am I attacking you, are you attacking me, or are we both stating our beliefs?
    If we are in a public setting ...we are simply spouting off. If you obtain a permit to put up a display extolling the virtues of atheism , and I find this out and obtain a permit to put up a display with the intent of discrediting you ...I am attacking.


    I do not believe that in order to be heard or recognized that a group has to denigrate another or has a right to. I view this same as if someone put up a banner saying the holocaust did not happen at a memorial to holocaust victims. It is not an alternative view; it is an outright attack on Jews.


    You mentioned the gay thing so I will just say this, I think it is ridiculous for them to want to be “married “ when they are already entitled to a civil union that grants them the same rights as married couples as far as taxes and insurance are concerned. I don’t see the point for them to use the term married as that is a Christian ceremony and does not agree with a gay life style.That said …who cares if they marry or what they do …as long as they do not try to push it on me or try to redefine my beliefs and values to fit theirs. Just leave me and mine out of it and we will get along just fine.


    Truth be told I do not feel the Christian faith is threatened by gay marriage as much as it is by Christians who are participating in a rising divorce rate in the church, as well as by Christians who are not willing to put the time into their families that they should in order to build a strong family unit.


    Regardless, Christians do not have to do anything special in order to freely practice their religion unmolested, it is their right. No one has the constitutional right to equal time and equal say. Not yet at least.
    Last edited by K.Bullock; 12-10-2008 at 12:22 PM.
    Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

  5. #65
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    If we are in a public setting ...we are simply spouting off. If you obtain a permit to put up a display extolling the virtues of atheism , and I find this out and obtain a permit to put up a display with the intent of discrediting you ...I am attacking.
    Which is why, as I noted very early in this thread, I feel the sign was rude. However, it is their right as long as public property is being used for both displays.

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    I do not believe that in order to be heard or recognized that a group has to denigrate another or has a right to. I view this same as if someone put up a banner saying the holocaust did not happen at a memorial to holocaust victims. It is not an alternative view; it is an outright attack on Jews.
    I also agree with this. I couldn't read the text of the sign in the photo so I don't know whether it ws an attack or a statement. With the Washington DC example you posted in another thread I thought the sentiments expressed clearly fell in the category of a statement that was seasonally appropriate and in no way an attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    You mentioned the gay thing so I will just say this, I think it is ridiculous for them to want to be “married “ when they are already entitled to a civil union that grants them the same rights as married couples as far as taxes and insurance are concerned. I don’t see the point for them to use the term married as that is a Christian ceremony and does not agree with a gay life style.That said …who cares if they marry or what they do …as long as they do not try to push it on me or try to redefine my beliefs and values to fit theirs. Just leave me and mine out of it and we will get along just fine.
    This is obviously a much broader discussion and probably warrants its own thread. Marriage, as defined in civil law, is essentially a special form of legal partnership. The laws surrounding marriage deal with issues of sharing property, sharing liabilities, sharing child raising responsibilities, and, when needed, dissolving the partnership.

    The definitions of marriage in civil law have little or nothing to do with the definitions of marriage in religious law. The fact that most states have defined standards for what constitutes a "common law" marriage underscore the importance of the having the framework of civil law when health/death affect these partnerships or when these partnerships are dissolved. Those civil rights and responsibilities, in my mind, should apply equally and without distinction whether the "civil unions" involved are between heterosexual couples or homosexual couples. Both have the same needs. Whether those unions are called "marriage" or "civil union" is not particularly relevant.

    The simple solution would be to eliminate the use of the term marriage altogether from civil law. Let them all be called civil unions. If heterosexual couples find that unacceptable, then I have to believe it's because the two are not, in fact, equal. I do not see how, in any way, the institution of civil marriage of heterosexual couples is affected by whether or not homosexual couples marry as well. Will the heterosexual divorce rate go up? Leave the issue of church marriage to be decided by individual churches. In my church, gay couples have been able to be "married" for many many years. I can assure you that this has had no impact either on the sexual orientation of anyone or the marriage or divorce rate of heterosexuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    Truth be told I do not feel the Christian faith is threatened by gay marriage as much as it is by Christians who are participating in a rising divorce rate in the church, as well as by Christians who are not willing to put the time into their families that they should in order to build a strong family unit.


    Regardless, Christians do not have to do anything special in order to freely practice their religion unmolested, it is their right.
    I agree completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    No one has the constitutional right to equal time and equal say. Not yet at least.
    When it comes to using public resources for religious expression, the fact is that different groups must be given equal access. That may be no access as has happened in some areas despite vehement opposition from Christian groups, or universal access which was the policy under which the atheist sign was aloowed to be placed.

  6. #66
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Maybe this is the question; If the state building was open for displays and the nativity or any other Christian symbol was NOT put up, and say only Christmas trees (I don’t perceive that as a religious symbol), snowmen, and silver bells where up as decorations, do you think they atheist would sill be inclined to put up a sign decrying religion? My guess is in this case NO. The billboard they are putting up in Washington is of course a different matter because it is about Christmas in general, so I am specifically taking about the other and not the billboard. This is what I mean by them, the atheist, being mean spirited and attacking someone else for their expression of religion. In this instance it is a protest and NOT a display simply of ones values or beliefs. If there were no Christian display there would be no atheist display. Again it is their right, but if this is the case is does not make it right.

    Jeff, just wondering, and I know your not saying that you feel the same way as these guys and take the live and let live attitude, but do you “celebrate” Christmas…by that I mean do you put up a tree, lights, give presents, cards? Just curious because I know many non Christians that do.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  7. #67
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    The simple solution would be to eliminate the use of the term marriage altogether from civil law. Let them all be called civil unions. If heterosexual couples find that unacceptable, then I have to believe it's because the two are not, in fact, equal. I do not see how, in any way, the institution of civil marriage of heterosexual couples is affected by whether or not homosexual couples marry as well. Will the heterosexual divorce rate go up? Leave the issue of church marriage to be decided by individual churches. In my church, gay couples have been able to be "married" for many many years. I can assure you that this has had no impact either on the sexual orientation of anyone or the marriage or divorce rate of heterosexuals.



    Jeff
    I feel that by changing words and watering down their meaning we are moving the boundries for social acceptances
    Soon we will be having civil unions between people and animals,, hell if animals have equal rights than logically you can follow that path. Because there is always some unsatified weirdo with all the time and money in the world to lobby their ideas.

    No one cares if gays live together ,,but why should we give them tax breaks the same as a marrage between man and a woman.
    We have gone from gays being perverted or mental illness pre 7o,s
    to gays being tolerated
    to gays being just an alternative life style
    to gays being exacly like a non gay
    to gay people marrying gay people and calling it the same thing as a marrage between man and a woman.

    Guess what ,,,the action is still a mental illness just as it was since man begun. The smarter we become the more stupit we are.
    Child molesters are also attracted to a socially disgusting behavior.
    They also have made leaps and bounds in their progress to be equal in our society. You know they cant help it please re habilitate me crap. Its one thing thinking those thoughts and its another acting them out.
    When will this lunacy stop
    Someday it will be illegal to be straight
    We live in a really weird world where ever body has to accept everybodies life styles.

    The boundries have been moved a little at a time.. so no one notices,, in all catagories of life,,,,who knows what will happen after the generations that have live through this transition are gone.
    It will be a free for all. There will be no rational to hold back the perversions. and keep them in check.
    but ,I guess what people don't know won't hurt them untill its to late and everybody will be sitting around with their thumbs up the ass trying to figure out why.

    We will suffer the same fate as Rome. We have grown so fat and appethetic that we have compromised our standards so that anything goes
    And please spare the biggot commontaries. (not you Jeff )( but some others will throw that one out)

    Life has standards regaurds
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 12-11-2008 at 08:41 AM.

  8. #68
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbullgator View Post
    Maybe this is the question; If the state building was open for displays and the nativity or any other Christian symbol was NOT put up, and say only Christmas trees (I don’t perceive that as a religious symbol), snowmen, and silver bells where up as decorations, do you think they atheist would sill be inclined to put up a sign decrying religion? My guess is in this case NO. The billboard they are putting up in Washington is of course a different matter because it is about Christmas in general, so I am specifically taking about the other and not the billboard. This is what I mean by them, the atheist, being mean spirited and attacking someone else for their expression of religion. In this instance it is a protest and NOT a display simply of ones values or beliefs. If there were no Christian display there would be no atheist display. Again it is their right, but if this is the case is does not make it right.

    Jeff, just wondering, and I know your not saying that you feel the same way as these guys and take the live and let live attitude, but do you “celebrate” Christmas…by that I mean do you put up a tree, lights, give presents, cards? Just curious because I know many non Christians that do.
    Actually Corey, as I believe I said in an earlier post, I love celebrating Christmas. I no longer put up a tree since my children are grown and we celebrate in my daughter's house (I'm also allergic to the trees). However, we tend to treat it as a 2-3 holiday involving an extended family including Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, and Muslims.

    Over the years we have decommercialized the holiday some, giving fewer presents with more presents that we have made ourselves, and combining the holiday with more volunteer activities. On December 22, I will help organize and photograph a Christmas party that we do every year for homeless children. Each child will receive a pre-paid credit card that they can use to buy gifts for themselves or their family/friends, separate gifts that we have purchsed and wrapped for them, and mittens, scarfs and hats that members of my church bring in to hang from our "mitten tree". I may not be Christian in a religious sense, but my morality is definitely Judeo-Christian in origen and I have no reservations celebrating a man who helped awaken feelings of charity and compassion in so many.

  9. #69
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Pete,

    I will admit that I did not grow up with a tolerance for homosexuality. I was sexually molested twice as a child -- once where the man involved killed himself when he was caught by the police -- and that, combined with a fairly traditional kid's view of "pansies" did not leave me feeling very charitable.

    My feelings began to change over time as I grew up, and as I met more and more people who were gay. I saw the effects of homosexuals who had married heterosexuals in an effort to "cure" themselves. The results injured everyone involved. I also saw committed couples who stayed together for decades despite all the barriers placed in their paths.

    When I joined a church that welcomed gays, my exposure grew since more than 20% of our congregation is homosexual. All those little "preferences" we give to heterosexual couples are in fact very important. Fortunately, more hospitals will allow a homosexual "partner" in to see the patient almost as if they were family. However, where children object, a homosexual partner may be excluded completely from the bedside of a dying loved one. Because they cannot marry, partners cannot be "next of kin" without elaborate legal steps that may still prove fragile in the face of other family objections. One couple I know -- both women -- lived together as a couple for more than 30 years before one of them died. All of their assets were jointly owned and each had a will naming the other as her sole heir. However, that did not prevent there from being serious problems that almost led to the surviving spouse losing the house that they shared for the last 20 years of their relationship.

    We live in a world where durable, loving relationships are the exception, not the rule, and where half of all marriages end in divorce. Gays are often criticized for promiscuity. However, when loving people have a relationship that would be celebrated for its success between a man and a woman, our current laws provide no support and may simply condemn it. To me, that makes no sense. I understand those who have different religious traditions, although I would point out that some of those same traditions tolerated slavery. I do not believe that those traditions justify discriminating against unions of homosexual people in civil law in a country that has held to a "wall of separation" between church and state for more than 200 years.

    With respect to the molestations I suffered as a child, I finally figured out that there is a big difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. The man who molested me and killed himself had done the same to many other children -- both boys and girls.

  10. #70
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    Jeff
    I think maby you missed a point that I was trying to make.
    I also have friends that are homosexuals ,,,well 2 anyway.
    I have nothing against them as people. They are good people.
    I think many a child molester has been refered to as really nice people by their next door neighbor.
    I guess my point is that I should,t be able to collect retriremant unless I am elegible for it. The rules say I must be a certain age.
    Well the rules forever until recently was marraige between a boy and a girl. For some it goes much deeper than that.
    To me it is a moving of social boundries. We accept more and more perversions including what government does. I am not just talking sexual pervertions but social perversions also.
    They have shown up in the deteriorizing ethics in government and society.
    Its all happening because we keep moving the standards.
    We have gone from no movement on the line to creeping to screaming and whining.

    whast you have left from lack of standards is the practice that everything goes as long as you don;t hurt anyone.
    I consider many of our school systems to be mentally abusive to our children., because what is taught goes against what many parents
    teach their childen.

    Maby more later gotta get back to work
    Pete
    I don't want my kids taught weird stuff.

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