VP admits knowledge of Waterboarding

[subroc]

I have already read enough about waterboarding including the Wikepedia page to make my own determination.

In the Wikepedia post it has a list of individuals and groups that call it torture.

Well, I'll start my own list. It is considered a coersed interigation method and not considered torture by citizens and Vice Presidents alike.

That is how much stock I give a Wikepedia page.

[K.Bullock]

Wow you just make it so easy.

.

I can see it now an Al Qaeda member under some tent in that flea infested desert you talked about screaming to his fellow members "They are like a mad dog that needs to be put down.>

So without water boarding they will stop hating us? Killing us is worship for them. We are the enemies of Islam because Islam in it's reformed (Wahhabism) has declared that we are it's enemies ...and that is it, not because an Ayatollah or any dictator or any nation, the Religion has declared war on us according to the fundamentalists that believe in the Wahhabi movement within Islam that the terrorists subscribe to.. . It has nothing to do with some sycophantic fantasy that if we are just nice, they will like us and go away.

The worldview is very similar to the early American belief in manifest destiny, to see the nation stretch from ocean to ocean was pre-ordained in their mind and any and all tactics to help that come about were justified by that ideal.

Wahhabism is similar in that it is to inherit the world. That is why they are at war with us. Because we stand in their way. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. They have been at war with us since our nations inception. We have yet to recognize it though I think.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...lf/wahhabi.htm

[Jay Hinton]

From Wikepedia:
Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages.[1][2] Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent.[3] In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex.[4] Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, physical injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, psychological injury, and, ultimately, death, which may be caused by one of the many possible conditions -- not only drowning -- that are triggered by this behavior.[5] The physical effects of waterboarding can come on even months after the event, and the psychological effects on the victims can last for years.[6]
Waterboarding was used for interrogation at least as early as the Spanish Inquisition to obtain information,[7] coerce confessions, punish, and intimidate. It is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts,[5][8] politicians, war veterans,[9][10] intelligence officials,[11] military judges,[12] and human rights organizations.[13][14]
"

So what we have is a form of "strong encouragement" developed during the Spanish Inquisition and extended by Japanese interrogators in WWII (people we charged with war crimes) and Chinese interrogators during the Korean War (where we called it brain washing). It can cause permanent physical damage, including brain damage, and even death.

I guess torture only exists when it's being done by someone else to us. I'll believe it's not torture when Cheney himself is subjected to it a public video and the procedure is done with all the embellishments performed on any of our prisoners. If it's good enough for him, I would agree that it's good enough for them.

We are what we do, not what we believe, not what we promise, and not what we dream. If we allow ourselves to become our enemies, we deserve their fate.

There is an easy way to avoid it. Don't be a terrorist.

[Bruce MacPherson]

For those of you who approve such tactics, I can only assume you are also OK with similar interrogation of our own forces. Presumably representatives of our government who have called those who did similar things to our troops monsters who should be tried and convicted of war crimes are nothing but liberal whiners.

In my mind, you treat all people as you would want to be treated under similar circumstances. That doesn't mean that they would return the favor. However, our morality is measured first by our standards, not the lowest common denominator from among our enemies. I have never seen a convincing argument that torture is an effective technique for gathering reliable intelligence.

Theory is one thing practical application another. If you ever had your life on the line in a combat situatuion I would be the best friend you could have because I'm not going to spend any time worrying about the ethical or moral implications of whatever it is I have to do to save your sorry backside. I do have some practical experience here so maybe my world view is slightly different than yours.

[Hew]

Read what you wrote. You have become what you hate.

Oh yes. Exactly. He supports waterboarding, so that means he beheads those who don't agree with his religion, sends his children to blow themselves up killing other children and he murders little girls for going to school. That's the same kind of sophistry that PETA uses when they say, "a rat is a pig is a chimp is a boy."

Sherman burned his way across the south. That makes us a nation of arsonists?

We firebombed civilians in Dresden....I guess we became genocidal Nazis?

We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki...that made us imperial murderers just like Japan?

Thank goodness that throughout our history this country has been led by serious men willing to make difficult decisions in order to protect our union as necessary. Lincoln, FDR and Truman would laugh in your face at the notion that waterboarding three POS terrorists makes us just like them.

[Hew]

For those of you who approve such tactics, I can only assume you are also OK with similar interrogation of our own forces.

Tens of thousands of US military personnel have been waterboarded. They call it "training." You call it "torture." I gather that means that we can scratch Parris Island from your list of acceptable substitutes to Guantanamo?

[K G]

For those of you who approve such tactics, I can only assume you are also OK with similar interrogation of our own forces. Presumably representatives of our government who have called those who did similar things to our troops monsters who should be tried and convicted of war crimes are nothing but liberal whiners.

In my mind, you treat all people as you would want to be treated under similar circumstances. That doesn't mean that they would return the favor. However, our morality is measured first by our standards, not the lowest common denominator from among our enemies. I have never seen a convincing argument that torture is an effective technique for gathering reliable intelligence.

Jeff, help me understand how "our standards" matter one whit to our enemies? Seriously...no sarcasm intended. Do you think al Qaeda measures how they treat hostages by "our standards?"

As for "convincing arguements," why is it that ANY of us, liberal or conservative, should have any knowledge of how these issues are handled? Have we forgotten the old adage "Loose lips sink ships?" The world is now connected by the tap of a keyboard and satellite communication...why do we feel the need to play our cards to the world, especially to those who LIVE to DIE while killing us all?

Morality in war...what an oxymoron......if we measured our morality by our enemy's lowest common denominator, we'd tie the Gitmo detainees to the bumpers of some Humvees and drag them through Times Square. We show the measure of our morality every day by not conducting scorched earth warfare. Perhaps if we had, OBL's ashes would be a distant memory, 90% of ALL our troops would be home, we wouldn't be spending $10B/mo. to build THEIR economy, and rebuilding our own economy would go a WHOLE lot smoother. Heck....it might never have gotten as bad as it has.....

Think fewer bankruptcies regards,

kg

[Hew]

Morality in war...what an oxymoron......if we measured our morality by our enemy's lowest common denominator, we'd tie the Gitmo detainees to the bumpers of some Humvees and drag them through Times Square. We show the measure of our morality every day by not conducting scorched earth warfare. Perhaps if we had, OBL's ashes would be a distant memory, 90% of ALL our troops would be home, we wouldn't be spending $10B/mo. to build THEIR economy, and rebuilding our own economy would go a WHOLE lot smoother. Heck....it might never have gotten as bad as it has.....

Ka-Chiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing.

[badbullgator]

Good post Keith.
I would hope nobody here is foolish enough to think that water boarding is the worst thing that either side does to gain intelligence information.
What I find curious is that in the day of modern media coverage on the battlefields, a lot of people seem to think that they have the right to know everything that the military does to protect our country. I was not around during WWII, but somehow I don’t think there was much uproar over how Nazi’s or Japanese combatants were treated or interrogated. I wonder if these same folks that feel they need to be the watchdogs for the enemy also should be privy to secret planning, I mean if you have the right to know how non-citizen enemy combatants are treated you certainly would want to see any advanced plans for secret military actions before hand so you could approve…right?
My nephew is an interrogator, first for the army and now for a “private” company located in northern Virginia. He says in all the interrogations he has done, and it has been more than a few, he has yet to interrogate anyone who was not involved in something detrimental to our side. I might also mention that he was shot once during these procedures and has had several of his guys shot or killed, so the folks they are dealing with are not exactly our buddies.

[cotts135]

Oh yes. Exactly. He supports waterboarding, so that means he beheads those who don't agree with his religion, sends his children to blow themselves up killing other children and he murders little girls for going to school. That's the same kind of sophistry that PETA uses when they say, "a rat is a pig is a chimp is a boy." .

This is what he said."I say let me send them there. Let me throw the switch. They are like a mad dog that needs to be put down. "

I never said I didn't agree that these people are evil and have a deep seated hate for Americans and what we stand for. We need to protect ourselves and if that means killing these guys on the battlefield that is fine. Where we disagree is what we should do to them once their in our custody. I could be wrong but it seems that Buster would just rather torture them for any intelligience they may have and then line them up against some wall and shoot them. This is similiar to what they would do to us.

I would like to believe that it is our laws and morality that separates us from them.

"Tens of thousands of US military personnel have been waterboarded."

Really????????????????????????????????? Sounds like a gross exaggeration to me.

The US considered Waterboarding torture up until just recently when they then found it convenient to redefine what it meant. Just because some Justice Department lawyers said it was legal doesn't mean that it is so.