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Thread: Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    I don't agree that dogs are programmed to go long ... or better put, I think whether a dog prefers to go long or short depends

    For example, if there is a short gun up - flyer or dead - you will find that some dogs will not want to look past that station or drive past that bird.

    In the same vein, sometimes the dogs prefer the long bird because it is more attractive. For example, the short bird is a dinky throw, the long bird is a big throw across the horizon with feathers up in the sun. Depending on the conditions, a long dead bird can be more attractive to the dogs than the shorter flier.

    It is one thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to a long unretired bird.

    It is another thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to the long retired bird.

    There are so many different variables that I don't know how valid any generalizations are here.

    I never met the man, but I have heard plenty of Rex Carr's students tell me that even though he worked on secondary selection in training that when he was at a trial, if there was an attractive bird that the dogs wanted that was long, he would tell his students to let the dogs take that bird.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

    It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.
    I think this is mostly true. Having had the priviledge to run Dave's dogs at his seminars, they have been trained to run by that short gun. It was interesting to watch his dogs, compared to running my own dogs on the same test. The responses were amazing depending on whether the dog was trained to secondary select, or ideally select.

    However, I have a dog or two that LOVES to run long, and if I attempt to secondary select, I can pretty much guarantee that I will be flipped the dew claw, and wind up with a mess. However, leaving the dog to run long, the dog has no issue with remembering teh short retired, or being talked into it.... listening to Dave talk, I now look at the birds int eh field as: THe flyer is filet mignon, the next bird is pot roast, and then there is hamburger...

    The last trial ran, my female didn't bother to even watch the short go bird (it was dead)- didn't even turn her head, but was quivering with excitement over the two long birds... it's about knowing your dog, and knowing how they will respond at a trial.... something I'm still trying to figure out on a given weekend.
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  3. #23
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    I just attended the Rorem Seminar in Florida as observer. I hope everyone trains on secondary selection. I'm training on ideal selection.

    A quote "don't be prisoners of bad habits."

    I would like to take that one step further, Don't be prisoners of habit.

    Paul Young - you would love the handling Seminar. It is all about reading dogs.
    for example I've changed my outlook on the old saying my dog lied to me.

    Rorem - Dogs don't lie you read your dog wrong.
    Paul I owe you so I will discuss the seminar when I see you. Best seminar I have ever attended and plan to attend again next year.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Bruce MacPherson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?
    Apparently, at least in the case of the winner of this years National Open, the dog.
    "The longer you let a dog go in the wrong direction the more they think they are going in the right direction" Don Remien.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Is "ideal selection" really just no selection at all? Just let the dog pick up whatever bird it wants in whatever order it wants?

  6. #26
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    Absolutely Not. It is used in training.

    Attend the seminar.
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  7. #27
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    I do train secondary selection almost 98% of the time. A short retired thrown second will be picked up second in training since I train secondary selection. I think it also makes a dog more flexible and with time more relaxed with difficult concepts. I could pick it up last in training since in the majority of cases it could be easier, but that's not my goal in training.

    At a trial I will let the dog get it last. Especially if the other dogs aren't getting it second...

    Angie
    Last edited by Angie B; 12-20-2008 at 06:32 AM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Atkinson View Post
    I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

    John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

    Thanks! Chris
    Chris,

    I am glad you asked .

    With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
    I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

    As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, but I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that point in time, with that dog, in the conditions at hand .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
    I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for my dogs and... for most others for that matter

    You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training.
    I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.


    John
    Last edited by john fallon; 12-20-2008 at 07:04 AM.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

    It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.
    This would be my concern as well.

    Also, while we debate the efficacy of training two long before a short retired, it seems at least a part of the answer would depend upon the entire volume of the training process used. In other words if this particular "concept" is contrary to the consistency of logic used in your training process, it's merits under Rorem's system might be of little benefit, even detrimental under a different system.
    David Didier, GA

  10. #30
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Chris,

    I am glad you asked .

    With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
    I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

    As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, but I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that point in time, with that dog, in the conditions at hand .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
    I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for my dogs and... for most others for that matter

    You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training.
    I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.


    John
    I love it John! Sincerely, THANK YOU!

    I also agree about the "always" and "never" absolutes. Dennis Voigt used a quite recently that I'll have to try and find. It started off "Never say "always""... But then it referenced to avoid saying "never" as well.

    Have a great weekend.

    Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

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