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Thread: Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection

  1. #11
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    Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
    CB
    LUCK - WHEN PREPARATION MEETS REALITY!
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Always ??????????

    john
    Yes,,, you wanna fight a dog at a trial on what bird they want??

    Go ahead...

    What does your mentor say John? I'm sure you train with good field trial pro's all the time? What is their take on it?

    Angie
    Last edited by Angie B; 12-19-2008 at 08:51 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jay Dufour's Avatar
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    We reviewed the Carr -Rorem video tonight on the subject...it was interesting.Though the video is fairly old....it seems he was refining the theories he uses today.Pertty cool.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Baker View Post
    Not that I agree or disagree with this method,but I definetly believe in having a dog with the upmost in balance!! I can't foreget what either Joe Harp or Hugh Author said one time "Rin Tin Tin can't go Long twice, then go short." Evidentally David has broken that train of thought, I have never tried that on purpose, but it has happened to me before!! I think I will discuss this topic at large with Mike and see what he thinks, I'm pretty sure what the answer will be, IT DEPENDS!!! Having a dog balanced with enough bottom to get that long retired punch bird and thinking enough to pickup the short retired right in front of a middle distance flyer is what we are all hoping to have, no matter what order your training dictates you to the order that you pickup the birds. This is the best topic RTF has had in a while.I hope to get to sit in on a Rorem seminar sometime in the near future to hear more about this topic.
    CB
    Maybe "Rin Tin Tin" can't go short after going long twice? But our AA dogs can. Think about it. Where else can they go but short once the long appealling birds have been picked up, in a situation that's been described?

    Train for flexability and depth... A dog needs a very, very rich vocabulary to be successful week in and week out at field trials.

    But be prepared for how a dog will want to pick up their marks at a trial. It can be very contrary to your training given the situation.

    Angie

  5. #15
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    I have had several conversations with David about this subject and I still don't pretend to entirely grasp his rationale. However, I think - in part - his rationale is this

    1) If you want to win, you must be flexible
    2) There are times in trials - and particularly in Nationals, where you will see quads, with two flyers and hen pheasant retired birds - where you must be able to go long twice, then come back for the short retired birds (or go long, short, long, short depending on the layout of the birds)
    3) You want a dog that is comfortable picking up the birds in whatever sequence is appropriate
    4) If a dog is only able to pick up the birds ... short, long, longer ... it won't be very successful if it is necessary to dig up the long bird before the short bird
    5) So, you want to train your dog to be flexible in the manner in which it picks up the birds
    A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture.

    Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants.

    Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angie B View Post
    Yes,,, you wanna fight a dog at a trial on what bird they want??

    Go ahead...
    Angie
    Go to any weekend trial and watch Amateurs (sometimes a goofball pro) “TRY” to fight a dog off a bird that the dog wants…thereby sending the entire series into the s#!t house.

  7. #17
    Administrator Chris Atkinson's Avatar
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    I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

    John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

    Thanks! Chris
    "Determining and applying the criteria for when and when not to use correction is the essence of the art of dog training. I make a distinction between a mistake and a lack of effort." - Mike Lardy - Volume I "After Collar Conditioning"

  8. #18
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    2 things come to mind in the selection decision: habits and picture.
    Habits dealing with order that the dog is most accustomed/training. As creatures of habit many dogs are most confident picking up in reverse order.
    Balance this against the picture presented to the dog. Retired or not how well did these throws standout as they were going down? What will dog be looking at when/if he overruns the short bird?

    IMHO there is no formula. It's a game time decision.

    Tim
    You order a Lab; ask a Golden; but negotiate with a Chesapeake!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Main View Post
    A big reason for secondary selection, is to pick up the tougher short bird while it is fresher in the dog's memory. Is that the trade off? The fresher memory vs the absence of the suction from the long attractive bird if it is out of the picture.

    Does the it matter the type of dog? For example, a good short bird marker vs poor short bird marker. Or, a dog that is flier crazy and will go to the long flier anyway vs the team player that will pick them up in whatever order the handler wants.

    Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?
    The dog,,, The short bird is there in a well schooled, well trained AA dog... They do remember it from all the short retired bird training they've had.

    At a trial,,, the symantics change... A dog will always want what they want first. That is to go long... It's the way they're programed. Long is easy...

    Let that dog get what they want first... Then you have all the time you want or need to "talk them into" that short retired bird... The suction is gone from the birds they want... There is no where else to go,,, so they are more receptive to the idea of going to that short retired bird.

    Thank you Dave Rorem,,,

    Makes total sense to me. How about you John???

    Angie

  10. #20
    Senior Member Doug Main's Avatar
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    Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

    It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.

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