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Thread: Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection

  1. #31
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Long bird behind momma-poppa, out or not, go bird off to side. Momma retires into poppa. Pick up go bird, Then poppa. Now what?

    Most, and I would never say always, but most times you are going to work pretty hard to pull out that momma bird, and try not to let them get the long gun.

    Because it is so tight, many dogs will lose memory, and think they have picked up that bird, if they go long first. So, in that case, you might really want to get the bird you want, not the one the dog wants.

    Do think it can be which dog, some are ok going back where they have just been, others not. But, maybe that is function of not so great training, although we have had both types, trained essentially the same.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

  2. #32
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    What if a dog was trained with "primary" selection? Would you feel they would have a easier time digging out that short retired?

    Angie

  3. #33
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

    But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cakaiser View Post
    Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

    But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough
    No kidding,,,, but that is how many train north of the border. Or at least that was the way they trained. It's been a while since I've talked or train with them.

    Angie

  5. #35
    Senior Member cakaiser's Avatar
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    North of the border = no flyers. Huge difference.
    Charlotte Kaiser: " The Problem Lies In The Talent."

  6. #36
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    From North of the Border:
    SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

    History of Selection (in brief)
    In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
    Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

    Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

    Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

    Why do dogs over-run short?
    1. We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
    2. Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
    3. Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
    4. Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

    What do I do?

    For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

    I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations.

    In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
    There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

    Cheers
    Dennis

  7. #37
    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    I train secondary but I have had a dog that liked to take the short retired out first in a trial setting. All I had to do is say easy and his head locked on the short bird or he just did it himself, and over a flyer. Unfortunately I had this dog early in my career and he was handicapped by my lack of handling skills on blinds.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  8. #38
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Always ?????

    john
    How the late Rex Carr hated that word! It ranked right up there with "never".

    Evan
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  9. #39
    Senior Member Howard N's Avatar
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    I seldom see quads. I train hard on secondary, selection digging the short retired out from in front of a long memory bird.

    When you say, "Easy," for the older dogs they understand it and lock in on the short retired just like Nancy said.

    In the excitement of a trial I've had them come back from the go bird and look out at the long bird. I've said easy and had them lock in on the short bird. We haven't always pulled it out but I've felt the dogs knew which one I wanted next when I've sent them. We've pulled it out in trials often enough to keep training on secondary selection.

    I thought in the Rorem/Carr tapes Rorem was suggesting what he's now calling ideal selection for just some high roller type dogs. Now, he's saying use it for all dogs? Does he have a step by step method of training for it?
    Howard Niemi

    You really gotta be careful about how high a pedestal you put your method, your accomplishments, your dog on. There's usually someone who's done more, somewhere. And they may have used a different method than you did! Chris Atkinson 2013

    get your dog out and TRAIN! caryalsobrook 2013

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

    Cheers
    Dennis,

    I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?

    Evan
    "Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under-whelms him, not overwhelms him." ~ Evan Graham

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