Simplifying Dog Learning Science -10 FAQs

[Debbie C]

I need to Visually and Mentally understand all of this, so some questions might not even make sence..

an example ...teaching pup to sit.

For positive...when you say GIVE something, is that a treat, toy or praise? and when you say ADD something, does that mean add a touch (gently push butt onto ground, or add pressure with the collar later on?)to make puppy sit? Is the GIVE something "always" for Reinforcement and is the ADD something "always" for Punishment or would it be for reinforcement as well...ex. Add pressure? Example two sort of reads that the pushing down of the dogs butt would be +ve Punishment. Is it a punishment, because we are assuming at this point the puppy already knows what sit is? Is it all positive reinforcement or positive punishment because we are trying to Teach the dog to do positive or good things? (sit when told, here when called, stop on the whistle...etc.) When a pup is bieng taught to sit, don't we end up reinforcing and punishing at the same time.....touch puppys bum at the same time as putting a cookie in front of pups nose and lifting it up?

For the negative.....to remove or take away. Do we only apply Negative pressure or punishment AFTER the dog knows a given command or action (sit, here etc)? When you say that if something is taken away from the dog and behaviour increases, does this mean the dogs behaviour increases for better or worse? I am assuming that what we would want to take away from the dog to make the behaviour better, more solid or increase, would be the pressure? Is this ALWAYS negative reinforcement? When you say when the dogs behaviour decreases, do you mean that the dog behaviour or actions are getting worse? We take something away...Negative punishment...mabey no treat, no bird, no praise???

I'm sure I am out to lunch here, but because I can't physically see what you mean, I have to try and interpret it here with words and more examples from any of you folks would sure make a better picture.

What about Collar Conditioning.

Dog knows sit and here. Now we are adding pressure to reinforce sit and here and make it more solid by saying sit "nick" sit, or Here ' nick' Here is this positive reinforcement because we have added some pressure? or is it positive punishment???

What would be negative reinforcement and what would be negative punishment?


I'll stop now, because I'm gonna confuse myself as well. I really appreciate all and ANY input and I realize everyone has their own methods and opinions, I just would really like to better understand the positive VS negative reinforcement and punishments.

I want to better understand my dogs, I want to be able to make changes for the better and would also like my dogs to better understand me.

thanks and sorry for the long post.
Debbie.

[ReedCreek]

Dennis and Marilyn,

I can't thank you enough for taking the time from what I know must be incredibly busy schedules to contribute/reply to topics on this forum. These kinds of topics and contributions are what make RTF such a valuable training and research tool. Marilyn I have been trying to get hold of as many of your articles as I can ever since I met you at Mike's Basic-Transition Training Seminar last year. Your contributions on training and your groundbreaking research on CMN is amazing....thank you! Dennis, I am getting ready to renew my subscription to Retrievers Online (there was never a doubt about that); but will also be ordering several years of back issues...

Thank you both again and please keep these topics coming!


Patti
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[Debbie C]

So is adding pressure on ear, butt, toe etc. until desired behaviour occures,(sit, here, FF, CC etc?) called positive punishment? I realize the example I gave may not have been the best, but I have been told to do that in the past, which is why I asked if it was a punishment and or a reinforcement. The majority of anything I learn is unfortunately not be visual example, so you can see where only reading something can get lost in translation.
I know I am going to over analyse this till I get it, but I need to "get it". I just gotta find the right collection of words that sink in to this fat head.

Another question..but put in a different way. Is positive punishment adding something they don't like to get a desired responce (pulling on the leash, tapping their butts, ecollar, or stick,) and is negative punishment taking away something they DO like to get the desired responce? (no treat, no bird, no retrieve?)

[RetrieversONLINE]

So is adding pressure on ear, butt, toe etc. until desired behaviour occures,(sit, here, FF, CC etc?) called positive punishment? I realize the example I gave may not have been the best, but I have been told to do that in the past, which is why I asked if it was a punishment and or a reinforcement. The majority of anything I learn is unfortunately not be visual example, so you can see where only reading something can get lost in translation.
I know I am going to over analyse this till I get it, but I need to "get it". I just gotta find the right collection of words that sink in to this fat head.

Another question..but put in a different way. Is positive punishment adding something they don't like to get a desired responce (pulling on the leash, tapping their butts, ecollar, or stick,) and is negative punishment taking away something they DO like to get the desired responce? (no treat, no bird, no retrieve?)

Debbie:

Read Part 3 elsewhere.
I recommend that people develop one good example for these things and use that to help understand the more obscure examples.
Try this example.

You say fetch and pinch the dog's ear and he fetches and you immediately stop the pinch. If his behaviour of fetching increases next time (is faster, more decisive) it is reinforcement. You removed the pinch when he did the behaviour-so it's negative reinforcement. If you had said fetch and added praise when he did, it would be positive reinforcement.

Sometimes it back fires!!

If next time he refused to fetch-that is the behaviour decreased, it is punishment to him. You added the pinch and probably kept it on too long after the fetch-so it is positive punishment. You might also have conditioned him to getting praise everytime but then you stopped. Some dogs would notice and feel punished (you removed something and the fetch response decreased.)

SO you can see that all these things can happen depending on the timing and the sequence. In normal force fetching I try to do only positive and negative reinforcement, that is increase the fetching behaviour.

Must be clear as mud by now- It does take time-I have always said this is not for everyone-some should just train their dogs

[Annette]

Dennis thank you for taking the time to post. Please continue as it it much appreciated.
Marie

[Poodlegirl]

Dennis - thanks so much for your time in putting this together. Even though I DO get the magazine the interaction and questions asked helps to solidify and clarify some points. I can read all day, but if I am not applying something I have a hard time with retention. So, though as Marilyn said many articles on such subjects have been written - this forum seems like a great venue to discuss and maybe apply the concepts to situations we've faced in "our" training.

I doubt that you have time to deal with everyone one-to-one but this is certainly a great way to cover various "topics".

Thanks again. Claudia

[john fallon]

Q6. OK then what is Classical conditioning.
A6. That’s Pavlov with his bell, dog food and salivating dog! The bell was a stimulus that got associated with the food. The dog knew what was coming and started to salivate. Scientists call the food a primary reinforcer-we don’t have to teach it. The bell was a secondary reinforcer-it got associated with the food. Note clicker training is based on this idea. Most of our training is based on operant not classical conditioning (unless EVERY time you blow your whistle you nick!!)

How about if one nicks every time one blow an immediate second whistle ?

After a while does not the "quick second whistle" then become a secondary reinforcer to the nick, by pairing it with the nick........... ?

john

[RetrieversONLINE]

How about if one nicks every time one blow an immediate second whistle ?

After a while does not the "quick second whistle" then become a secondary reinforcer to the nick, by pairing it with the nick........... ?

john

John,
I appreciate that you are obviously thinking about this procedure since it is such a mainstay of much training and is often questioned.

In learning theory, secondary reinforcer has a fairly specific meaning.
It becomes a reinforcer only when it is paired with a primary reinforcer-something that reinforces naturally such as food. A secondary reinforcer initially has no effect. An example is “good dog”. Initially it means nothing to a puppy. Only after you pair it with food, or petting or something which makes the dog feel good naturally does it act to make the dog feel good. Only then is it a secondary reinforcer. I’ve seen 9 month old dogs that didn’t respond to “good dog.” What a shame!

When we “sit” whistle, nick, “sit” whistle, what is happening? The “sit” whistle was learned long ago as a command to sit after we taught the word ”sit” as a command. In both cases, if we followed a collar conditioning program, we reinforced “sit” with a nick. The dog learned that if he sat quickly, the aversive e-collar nick stopped and so next time he sat quicker (negative reinforcement). You were probably taught to repeat the “sit” after the nick. Why?

Astute dog trainers learned that it “stabilized” the response. It seemed to make the dog relax a bit, feel surer and less rattled after the nick and subsequently respond better. Rather than label it, think about why –what could it mean to the dog?

In negative reinforcement, the dog learns that he has avoided or escaped the e-collar when he sits quickly. Dog: “whew, that quick sit stopped that-I’ll sit quickly next time!”

Now, if he hears another “sit” whistle as he’s sitting there, he might say “Great- I escaped that sit whistle--it didn’t even nick when I sat!-feeeling goood”

OK Sorry for the talking anthropomorphic dog-but get the idea?
I don’t think the second whistle is a secondary reinforcer for the nick any more than the first whistle is. We didn’t teach the whistle to mean nick-it’s supposed to mean sit even though some dogs misconstrue that! Reinforcers reinforce behaviour not e-collars. The second whistle simply reinforces the “sit”. It’s not really secondary since the second sit whistle hasn’t been paired with any primary reinforcer. At least, I hope it wasn’t-we don’t want the whistle to mean pain- we want it to mean sit!

I’m going to wave a little red flag here. As retriever trainers we should focus on observing our dogs and how they respond to their environment and what we do. As Marilyn Fender identified, this Applied Behaviour Analysis is a difficult topic to fully understand. We should strive to understand and use the principles and knowledge of learning theory but not get distracted too much by terminology. For example, there are about half a dozen types of "reinforcers" and their definitions get very intertwined with subtle differences. I don’t pretend to understand them all. I think we all need to be careful about trying to label everything.

Cheers

PS. You do not have to always repeat the command after the pressure!! As dogs advance we do it less and less and eventually infreguently, except occassionally for emphasis.

[Gun_Dog2002]

Might be good for folks to read Vicki Lambs article in the latest issue of HRC magazine....

/Paul

[john fallon]

I'm sorry that I did such a poor job in articulating my question.

The practice I am referring to is one where on, lets say, a difficult point on a water blind at an open where a lot of handlers are losing their dogs around a scented point....Or, if the dog initially took the cast, they were hooking back behind the point.

No one is successful when trying to carry the point, and most are having difficulty even when stopping and casting......... that is with a few notable exceptions.

Here is what they(the exceptions) did : cast on to the point, toot,cast. immediate toot (No matter if the dog took the cast or not), then a recast.

Now that second whistle had obviously been paired with a strong correction in training and the net result was that got the cast.

My question was about the science behind that type of immediate second whistle.

Let me take this opportunity to again join the chorus of Thank Yous for taking the time to answer these questions

john