Ok, here is an example that I have played with for years;Originally Posted by Keith Stroyan
Say you are doing swim-by or FTP, you cast your dog and then give it a "nick in route". What portion of operant conditioning did you just use?
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
Ok, here is an example that I have played with for years;
Say you are doing swim-by or FTP, you cast your dog and then give it a "nick in route". What portion of operant conditioning did you just use?
Last edited by tom; 02-26-2011 at 03:45 PM.
"there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance --- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer
Very very helpful, thank you very much for the time you put in!
Positive Reinforcement.
Positive reinforcement means to give something to increase behavior.
Positive doesn't always mean good. Negative doesn't always mean bad.
I think that's where many people get confused.
Or was it +ve Punishment?Positive Reinforcement.
Positive reinforcement means to give something to increase behavior.
Positive doesn't always mean good. Negative doesn't always mean bad.
I think that's where many people get confused.
Instead of thinking in terms of what you were thinking, think about what could be going through the dogs mind. Was the dog thinking "damn, I better not pop, or I will really get it"? (+ve punishment used to reduce or prevent an undesirable behavior)
My point is that sometimes there is more than one possible perception by the dog.
(those pesky exceptions that complicate simple rules)
It's a good thing to understand, unless we enjoy correcting all those training errors.
Last edited by tom; 02-26-2011 at 02:31 PM.
"there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance --- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer
Positive punishment means to give something to decrease behavior.
Why are you nicking? What outcome of behavior are you hoping to see? What would happen if you didn't nick in route?
Professional trainers would lack a job
If every hunter owned a tolling dog
W. Avery Nickerson
I'm saying it's positive reinforcement also.
But..... just to confuse the issue, doesn't this work because the dog has been introduced to the negative punishment of force fetch and collar fetch? Or would it work with an unforce fetched dog? I've never done it with a non force fetched dog.
Last edited by Howard N; 02-26-2011 at 03:37 PM.
Howard Niemi
"you don't get trapping advice from a trapper with no pelts on his wall" from Guy Burnett via Marvin Sundstom in 2013
Why are you nicking? What outcome of behavior are you hoping to see? What would happen if you didn't nick in route?
Correct, "(+ve punishment used to reduce or prevent an undesirable behavior)". In this case the nick is used to reduce the chances of a no-go, entry refusal, or pop. In both swim-by and FTP the idea is to prevent no-go and pops from ever showing their ugly heads, and if the 'nick in route' is used properly -- they won't.
So again, the answer to which portion of operant conditioning is it lies completely in the perception.
Last edited by tom; 02-26-2011 at 03:45 PM.
"there is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance --- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
Herbert Spencer
If the dog was never put through FF then the behavior of going after the bird under pressure probably wouldn't work. The dog would most likely turn around or do something else he was never conditioned to do.
Then you would be decreasing the behavior with a nic.
Motivational corrections work because the behavior has already been conditioned. FF is the conditioning for FTP.
Hey all, I took a behavior class in Purdue's vet program. I pulled this information from my notes. This information came from Dr. Luescher who is one of our behaviorists (this is not my own information, and I am not plagiarism...all the credit goes to him)...He does not train dogs to hunt, but is a master at the principles of learning. This information is QUOTED DIRECTLY FROM HIS NOTES....
Refinforcement : Any stimulus change that increases the probability of the behavior preceding it.
Punishment : Any stimulus change that reduces the probability of the behavior preceding it
Positive (reinforcement or punishment) : A stimulus is added to the situation (food, shock)
Negative (reinforcement or punishment) : A stimulus is removed from the situation (termination of shock, withholding food)
Dont feel bad if you dont get this stuff. I still have to sit down and look at it for a few minutes. Also, as long as you understand the principles, dont worry about getting caught up in the terminology. You have to be the dog and think like the dog. A dog will learn that if it sits and gets a treat, it is being positively reinforced. The behavior will become more frequent because the dog likes the consequence. If the dog is doing something and gets shocked, it will associate the behavior with something bad. Therefore, this is positive punishment becasue a shock was ADDED to make the behavior less frequent.
I am going to try and format the following in a table, but not sure if RTF will let me. here goes
Positive Negative
Reinforcement Food presented Shock Terminated
Punishment Shock Applied Food Withdrawn
Again, this table came from Dr. Luescher's notes and all credit goes to him!
Hohpefully this helps. I am by no means an expert at this, but if omebody still has questions, I will do my best.
Also, as a sidenote....it is important to note that there has been research done and found that puppies have certain stages in their life that may instill certain images in their head for the rest of their life that may be tough to break....
Socialization period is from 4 to 12 or 14 weeks of age! Socialize with as many people and vaccinated dogs as possible. You do this at your own risk if pup hasnt had vaccines, but pup may be fearful or skiddish around strangers/other dogs if this opportuniy is missed.
FEAR PERIOD!!!! 8 to 10 or 12 weeks. This is important because this period of the pups life is WITHING the socialization period. Use caution when socializing. You dont want strangers approaching pup abruptly, but with confidence and steadiness. Same goes with other dogs. Control the situation as much as possible during this period. Same goes for possible loud noises, etc. If a puppy is to be shipped that was purchased, it might be a bad idea to do it during this time in the pups life.
There are other growth periods, which include juvenile period (3-6 months) and adolescent period (puberty to adulthood).
Again, this information came from Dr. Luescher (sorry if this gets annoying, but I want to emphasize the fact that I am not taking credit for his work!)
Guys, please keep these in mind if plannin on shippin a puppy, introducing to guns/fireworks/people/other dogs, etc. This is very important!
Also, for you breeders out there...Dr. Luescher also told us that there has been research that has shown "Mild stress of the neonatal dog (0-10 days) such as induced by handling or by placing the pup on a cool surface [for approx 30 seconds] will increase the pup's ability to cope with stress later in life."
I thought this was very interesting and may be helpful for those who breed to do this for the first 10 days of the newborns life. I'm not sure where he got this information from, but he is an excellent behaviorist and I would trust him with any of my dogs!
Sorry so long....if this was useful to atleast one person then it was worth it!
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote