Simplifying Dog Learning Science -10 FAQs

[RetrieversONLINE]

Dennis, I would appreciate hearing your answer to this question you posed in your original post. A10.

"All of the procedures that we use in retriever training can be analysed in terms of learning theory. Most training issues such as ‘noise by dogs’, ‘cheating around ponds’, ‘getting out down the shore early’, or ‘creeping’ can be addressed though punishment or through reinforcement. If you analyse the schools of training by various “authors” you will see an emphasis on one or the other. For example, the dog climbs out on a point and is nicked there so he avoids landing next time. What is that –reinforcement or punishment? What do you do and why"


Was nicking the correct response from the trainer? and what do you do when you need that dog in a different training scenerio to take that point??

Dave

I posed the question to have you think about what method you would use and why.

Let's take the example of a dog veering toward shore or to a point on the way to a blind. Another example might be running around a pond. One method is to allow them to get right up on land (or around the pond) and then yell "no" and correct them.. This would be trying to stop the undesireable behaviour and adding an aversive-thus Positive punishment. It can act to create a "hot-spot" and in the future dogs would not go there. This used to be a common technique. Two problems: Yelling NO does not tell the do what to do. Secondly, the no nick can create an unbalanced dog. Today's dog has to be as comfortable on land as the water. They cannot be afraid to land. What they have to learn is how to fight factors that prevent them from going straight and losing their destination. They have to learn how to make good decisions.

The way I train is to watch the dog and determine the instant he makes a decision to deviate. That is the best time to intervene in his mind and thinking. I don't want to condone a bad decision and then Bam he gets it. Instead, I will blow a sit whistle and literal cast to the bird. Now if he deviates I have told him what to do and he has not made an effort to change. Now I can either repeat that sequence(attrition) or I can blow the sit whistle and give a nick. The nick is on something he knows(sit) and it is negative reinforcement of the sit. This aversive reinforcement acts indirectly to promote compliance on the cast. We call that Indirect pressure.

If you balance your training and make your interventions clear you lessen having dogs afarid to get on points. My dog's default is often to swim by the point given a choice but they should get on the point if I ask. Of course, some days they seek the point and sometimes they refuse my asking. I work on this forever and design 3-peats and tune-ups and cheating marks to keep these skills as sharp as possible.

The theory guides the procedure. Consistent application and persistent effort guide the practice.

[JTS]

I posed the question to have you think about what method you would use and why.

Let's take the example of a dog veering toward shore or to a point on the way to a blind. Another example might be running around a pond. One method is to allow them to get right up on land (or around the pond) and then yell "no" and correct them.. This would be trying to stop the undesireable behaviour and adding an aversive-thus Positive punishment. It can act to create a "hot-spot" and in the future dogs would not go there. This used to be a common technique. Two problems: Yelling NO does not tell the do what to do. Secondly, the no nick can create an unbalanced dog. Today's dog has to be as comfortable on land as the water. They cannot be afraid to land. What they have to learn is how to fight factors that prevent them from going straight and losing their destination. They have to learn how to make good decisions.

The way I train is to watch the dog and determine the instant he makes a decision to deviate. That is the best time to intervene in his mind and thinking. I don't want to condone a bad decision and then Bam he gets it. Instead, I will blow a sit whistle and literal cast to the bird. Now if he deviates I have told him what to do and he has not made an effort to change. Now I can either repeat that sequence(attrition) or I can blow the sit whistle and give a nick. The nick is on something he knows(sit) and it is negative reinforcement of the sit. This aversive reinforcement acts indirectly to promote compliance on the cast. We call that Indirect pressure.

If you balance your training and make your interventions clear you lessen having dogs afarid to get on points. My dog's default is often to swim by the point given a choice but they should get on the point if I ask. Of course, some days they seek the point and sometimes they refuse my asking. I work on this forever and design 3-peats and tune-ups and cheating marks to keep these skills as sharp as possible.

The theory guides the procedure. Consistent application and persistent effort guide the practice.

Thank you for this description, as I was explaining/discussing this very thing to someone the other day. Many folks I see don't quite grasp this fully......I will use your reply in future discussions. Thanks for this thread Dennis.

[Sabireley]

I posed the question to have you think about what method you would use and why.

Let's take the example of a dog veering toward shore or to a point on the way to a blind. Another example might be running around a pond. One method is to allow them to get right up on land (or around the pond) and then yell "no" and correct them.. This would be trying to stop the undesireable behaviour and adding an aversive-thus Positive punishment. It can act to create a "hot-spot" and in the future dogs would not go there. This used to be a common technique. Two problems: Yelling NO does not tell the do what to do. Secondly, the no nick can create an unbalanced dog. Today's dog has to be as comfortable on land as the water. They cannot be afraid to land. What they have to learn is how to fight factors that prevent them from going straight and losing their destination. They have to learn how to make good decisions.

The way I train is to watch the dog and determine the instant he makes a decision to deviate. That is the best time to intervene in his mind and thinking. I don't want to condone a bad decision and then Bam he gets it. Instead, I will blow a sit whistle and literal cast to the bird. Now if he deviates I have told him what to do and he has not made an effort to change. Now I can either repeat that sequence(attrition) or I can blow the sit whistle and give a nick. The nick is on something he knows(sit) and it is negative reinforcement of the sit. This aversive reinforcement acts indirectly to promote compliance on the cast. We call that Indirect pressure.

If you balance your training and make your interventions clear you lessen having dogs afarid to get on points. My dog's default is often to swim by the point given a choice but they should get on the point if I ask. Of course, some days they seek the point and sometimes they refuse my asking. I work on this forever and design 3-peats and tune-ups and cheating marks to keep these skills as sharp as possible.

The theory guides the procedure. Consistent application and persistent effort guide the practice.

I train the same way, as I came up with the TRT, attending Mike's seminars, and training with like minded people. The collar is a way to communicate with the dog in a consistent, understandable, and timely manner, over any distance (within reason). I wonder if you have had any thought about using the praise tone on the collar as a secondary reinforcer (like a clicker) to communicate with the dog at long distances that it has done the right thing. Is it enough that letting the dog continue, after stopping and casting, to communicate that it has done the right thing, or is there and additional training opportunity to communicate "yes, you have done it right" through the use of the tone? You mentioned "good dog" as a secondary reinforcer in an earlier message. It can be used when the dog is close but has limited utility at 200 yards.

Thanks!

[RetrieversONLINE]

I train the same way, as I came up with the TRT, attending Mike's seminars, and training with like minded people. The collar is a way to communicate with the dog in a consistent, understandable, and timely manner, over any distance (within reason). I wonder if you have had any thought about using the praise tone on the collar as a secondary reinforcer (like a clicker) to communicate with the dog at long distances that it has done the right thing. Is it enough that letting the dog continue, after stopping and casting, to communicate that it has done the right thing, or is there and additional training opportunity to communicate "yes, you have done it right" through the use of the tone? You mentioned "good dog" as a secondary reinforcer in an earlier message. It can be used when the dog is close but has limited utility at 200 yards.

Thanks!

I use good dog to over 200 yards. But i also pair it with a body signal-a sort of raised arems as in the parting of the seas! I can use that to 400 yards and even in a trial. I use it at the instant of the retrieve. It can't hurt but I know the real reward is the bird. I also practice stopped my dog silently with an arm pointing at them. All of these things keep our connection.

In the past, I experimented with the tone for good dog. I believe it has to be reinforced and maintained so carefully that it is not too feasible. I'm also not sure it has any effect in the water. Instead, I use it as recall signal now and I find it very useful for that.

[Sabireley]

I use good dog to over 200 yards. But i also pair it with a body signal-a sort of raised arems as in the parting of the seas! I can use that to 400 yards and even in a trial. I use it at the instant of the retrieve. It can't hurt but I know the real reward is the bird. I also practice stopped my dog silently with an arm pointing at them. All of these things keep our connection.

In the past, I experimented with the tone for good dog. I believe it has to be reinforced and maintained so carefully that it is not too feasible. I'm also not sure it has any effect in the water. Instead, I use it as recall signal now and I find it very useful for that.

I also use the tone for recall with my three older dogs, and it does work well. I have not done it with my puppy, yet thinking I might try using it for good dog. Thanks for the feedback.

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Dennis really appreciate your advice. Thanks.

[Hoytman]

I have really enjoyed you posts Dennis. You've really helped to clarify some things.

Bill

[steve schreiner]

" but much modern day retriever training is based on trying to increase good behaviours as opposed to stop bad behaviours. These days our dogs need to be comfortable going anywhere. the days of ‘don’t get out on the point’ or ‘always just get in the water’ are long gone. Understanding reinforcement can help you train a dog to make good decisions by teaching rather than testing. The alternative method is to test, set up failure and then correct. This can be a very discouraging process for a sensitive dog. Both methods use an aversive but reinforcement has been shown to last longer and thus be more reliable than punishment training. I think many of today's dogs tend to be quite sensitive and better candidates for reinforcement training" Dennis

You have just described why there was so much problem with trainers and the introduction of the collar many years ago....They (we) used it as a punishment tool for behaviors like you mentioned...With the learning of a program based on reinforcement we have seen great progress in the use of the collar as a training tool...Kinder and gentler for sure...Great post with too much info to digest at one sitting.....Thanks for it...Looking forward to more like it...Steve S

[jleve206]

Thank you for that post. I am new to the dog training world and find all of this information helpful. I say that I use +ve reinforcement to train my dog, but sometimes I am unsure about what really I am enforcing. I am learning that reinforcement or correction, they have to happen very quickly and at the exact second that the dog is doing/ not doing what it is supposed to be. Any advice or secrets that you want to share when it comes to training a dog for fun and hunting, please feel free to post anything like this anytime!
JeremyIMG00347-20120929-1316.jpg

[Mallard1]

I appreciate the post and discussion.

The best information for me is the distinction between punishment and negative reinforcement. My guess is that I and others confuse the two in use, and thus confuse the dog.

Example, FF with the ecollar using negative reinforcement (stop the stimulus when the dog does the correct behavior, vs. shocking the dog when takes off around a pond instead of through it).