Simplifying Dog Learning Science -10 FAQs

[RookieTrainer]

Very interesting discussion.

I would be extremely interested in a +only training method if I could get one question answered. The current method strives to create a compulsion to do what we ask our retrievers to do, including working through different kinds of pressure. How will a +only training method address this issue? What happens if/when the + reward is not rewarding enough to overcome a distraction? What tools will be in the toolbox to address the issue?

I am open to this and I am asking a serious question, not seeking to dismiss +only training out of hand.

[PhilBernardi]

I look forward to Daniel's singing from the FC or Grand mountain top.

And less I or he commit that god-forsaken statistical fallacy of Man Who, I welcome multiple shouts from said mountain top.

My ears are cupped....

[Daniel]

Daniel, you seem like a very well rounded trainer. Is it possible to use positive only techniques to revert natural instincts. Such as shore breaking ect.

Hi Jeff,

Not quite sure what you're asking. If you're wondering can we teach our dogs not to cheat using Positive Reinforcement only, the short answer is absolutely. But I would be misleading if I left it there, because most people will read that and think teaching a dog not to cheat using PR is a walk in the park. But there is a lot of "behind the scenes" work that makes that training go smoothly. For example, with my dogs I'm usually finished with cheating work when they're around nine months old. With other peoples dogs, who haven't been through what my dogs have, it's much more time consuming for me because they haven't learned how to learn. Had those dogs been raised like mine, they would have learned just as fast.

Did answer your question well enough?

Daniel

[A team]

Great read,

I am a newbie to the game and I REALLY appreciate the fact that this type of knowledge has taken years to collect and you are so willing to share it with the rest of us.

Cheers to you!

[Daniel]

Very interesting discussion.

I would be extremely interested in a +only training method if I could get one question answered. The current method strives to create a compulsion to do what we ask our retrievers to do, including working through different kinds of pressure. How will a +only training method address this issue? What happens if/when the + reward is not rewarding enough to overcome a distraction? What tools will be in the toolbox to address the issue?

I am open to this and I am asking a serious question, not seeking to dismiss +only training out of hand.

I believe your serious. It's similar to the question I once asked. My academic contacts said they didn't see why it wouldn't be possible; I didn't think that was a very enthusiastic endorsement. When I asked the dog world, it was a mixed bag. Agility trainers, obedience trainers, working border collies trainers, protection dog trainers, said no problem. When I turned back to my roots, hunting dogs, and asked those guys the question, the answer was an unqualified no! The question affects both the traditional compulsion training method AND the positive reinforcement method. And both have, as you said, a toolkit for when a breakdown occurs.

My own opinion is for compulsion trainers who don't have the time or inclination to dig into the why of a program, they will probably be better served staying with what their doing. A lot of the kinks have been removed and that program produces very well, and it will help those who don't want to delve into things. I wanted to put that caveat out there first because to traditional trainers, PR could easily look like smoke and mirrors.

In other dog sports however, PR has made huge inroads in a pretty short period of time. If you look at old movies of competitions from those sports and compare them to today's dogs in competition; it unreal. The skill level has advanced so much it's just a completely different world.

In a breakdown, to answer your question directly, for a dog taught with PR the reward is rewarding enough. I know that's sounds like a bit of a stretch. But because of how the dog has learned, motivation lives within, and well taught dogs are always motivated to perform the task. And why wouldn't they? There's nothing asked of them they're not capable of doing. When they're taught a new skill they learn it in increments. I don't teach anything, unless I'm convinced I'll be able to explain it clearly enough, so they'll have success almost immediately. So the dogs almost always accomplish what I ask of them.

Every dog already knows how to swim, pick up an object, sit, lie down, come to you when it wants to, etc., without us ever giving it any training. What we want is for them to do it when we say so. The compulsion method uses force; force fetch, force to the pile, force on the T, force in the swim by, etc., to elicit an escape/avoidance response that a skillful trainer can utilize for their purpose. Force is the at the core of the program. And it works! Using PR a dog has no reason to avoid anything, because they've been taught a method of learning in which they are always free to choose what to do and they love it. When they do something the teacher wants, they get a reward that they really like. PR dogs never want the lesson to stop.

A key element of operant conditioning puts the pupil in charge of the reward. Dogs learn very rapidly that something they do is worth a treat, and they work hard to to figure out what it is, so that they can make me give them a reward. That's how PR works. Dogs learn that their behavior manipulates me into giving them a reward. So they are always thinking, what's going to make that guy give me what I want. Thinking dogs can acquire pretty impressive skills. Using compulsion, dogs are always thinking what do I have to do so I won't have something happen to me I don't like. They fill their minds with what not to do. PR dogs fill their minds with possibilities of what do.

Dennis made the comment in a post in this thread that he gives his dogs plenty of praise and I'm sure he does. And I'm sure there are many people on this forum who have been told to be positive and give their dog plenty of praise. But giving a dog praise, or treats, is not PR. I don't praise very much, because in truth the dogs don't give a rip about it. The dog may want my attention and if I want to throw in some praise the dog won't mind, but it's the attention he wanted. Dogs care about themselves, and what they want. And what a retriever wants could be food, maybe it's a bumper, maybe a retrieve, maybe it's a game, maybe to go swimming, maybe playing Frisbee.

The last thing to say is I also employ what operant conditioning calls punishment. So I'm not a pure +R teacher. There's only one reason why I don't use +R exclusively. Say we're working on something at home in the kitchen. She does what I want she gets a treat, again she does what I want she gets a treat, then she doesn't give me what I want, and I withhold the treat. In operant conditioning withholding a reward is considered punishment. This kind of punishment is -P. I don't use this until I get to advanced lessons and only then when I haven't been able to design a lesson plan clearly showing the dog how to be successful. I hate using it because it shows me up as an ineffectual teacher. That's a hard nut to swallow.

To really do justice to your question would require a little seminar so you could see understand the larger picture and like the dogs become successful. That's the gist of it.

I know it's not enough, but I hope that's helps a little.

Daniel

[Mary Lynn Metras]

Very interesting discussion.

I would be extremely interested in a +only training method if I could get one question answered. The current method strives to create a compulsion to do what we ask our retrievers to do, including working through different kinds of pressure. How will a +only training method address this issue? What happens if/when the + reward is not rewarding enough to overcome a distraction? What tools will be in the toolbox to address the issue?

I am open to this and I am asking a serious question, not seeking to dismiss +only training out of hand.

Yes I would be interested in knowing how you correct an extremely hyper dog through positive training. Enlighten me. I have a pup who has Cosmo in him and has little focus. Food is a motivator but.... I don't need pressure b/c of his drive. I need how you would make your pup hold and do your FF program especially if there are problems. I can see it may work with my Tar but.. but this little fellow is very distracted. He loves to learn and is intelligent. Very interested in your method! and yes I too am serious about knowing what you do to accomplish this!

[Ken Bora]

......Not quite sure what you're asking.......
.....If you're wondering can we teach our dogs not to cheat using
Positive Reinforcement only, the short answer is absolutely.......
...I'm usually finished with cheating work when they're around nine months old.........

.........Did answer your question well enough?

Daniel

you have, for me

[RobinZClark]

Daniel, can you tell us what titles you have earned on your dogs and their breeds?

Thank you!

[cakaiser]

you have, for me

Me too...ha

[ErinsEdge]

I think before Dennis's nice stickey gets mucked up, the positive people need to start their own thread. Then I want to hear what Daniel has actually run with those finished decheated 9 month old puppies.