Simplifying Dog Learning Science -10 FAQs

[RetrieversONLINE]

I'm sorry that I did such a poor job in articulating my question.

Here is what they(the exceptions) did : cast on to the point, toot,cast. immediate toot (No matter if the dog took the cast or not), then a recast.

Now that second whistle had obviously been paired with a strong correction in training and the net result was that got the cast.

My question was about the science behind that type of immediate second whistle.

john

I am quite familiar with this technique but would never assume it was effective because the second whistle had been paired with a strong correction. I think this is a simple case of immediately stopping the dog again to create presence ( a form of pressure?) and have the dog be more thoughtful about paying attention to the cast. This could work with a dog who has never even worn a collar! This is probably just good emergency handling rather than anything scientific!

PS. My fingers are feeling kinda tired answering a question that you now say you didn't ask. Rereading your question, I can't for the life of me see this is what you were talking about? In any case it's not secondary reinforcement

Cheers

[Gun_Dog2002]

I am quite familiar with this technique but would never assume it was effective because the second whistle had been paired with a strong correction. I think this is a simple case of immediately stopping the dog again to create presence ( a form of pressure?) and have the dog be more thoughtful about paying attention to the cast. This could work with a dog who has never even worn a collar! This is probably just good emergency handling rather than anything scientific!

PS. My fingers are feeling kinda tired answering a question that you now say you didn't ask. Rereading your question, I can't for the life of me see this is what you were talking about? In any case it's not secondary reinforcement

Cheers

You'll get used to it Dennis.

/Paul

[RetrieversONLINE]

Might be good for folks to read Vicki Lambs article in the latest issue of HRC magazine....

/Paul

What kind of strip tease is this I've heard this magazine has some good stuff in it but for those of us deprived field trialers who don't yet get the HRC mag, how does the gist of Vicki's article relate to this? C'mon take it all off or don't tease!

[Gun_Dog2002]

What kind of strip tease is this I've heard this magazine has some good stuff in it but for those of us deprived field trialers who don't yet get the HRC mag, how does the gist of Vicki's article relate to this? C'mon take it all off or don't tease!

Well its kinda long, but in essence she wrote about Rex's theories and thoughts on this exact topic.

/Paul

[Bud]

He has a DVD coming out soon (we hope) on training alone.

Dennis I hope this is true.

[RetrieversONLINE]

Dennis I hope this is true.

I hate to always be quoting Rex Carr but I can remember him emphatically saying "hope should not be in the dog trainers mind. I couldn't care less if your dog does this test-it's just an opportunity to learn"

Anyway, the Training Retrievers Alone DVD has been filmed but we are still working on sound, narration and a comprehensive manual to go with it. Perhaps next spring. I had hoped for Christmas but that was just "an opportunity to learn" how hard it is to put thses things together.

[Bud]

I don't care who you quote, as long as it keeps making sense.

I am looking forward to it, and will be one of the first in line. Until then I think I'll just train my dog.

[Wayne Dibbley]

Debbie:

You say fetch and pinch the dog's ear and he fetches and you immediately stop the pinch. If his behaviour of fetching increases next time (is faster, more decisive) it is reinforcement. You removed the pinch when he did the behaviour-so it's negative reinforcement. If you had said fetch and added praise when he did, it would be positive reinforcement.

Sometimes it back fires!!

If next time he refused to fetch-that is the behaviour decreased, it is punishment to him. You added the pinch and probably kept it on too long after the fetch-so it is positive punishment. You might also have conditioned him to getting praise everytime but then you stopped. Some dogs would notice and feel punished (you removed something and the fetch response decreased.)

SO you can see that all these things can happen depending on the timing and the sequence. In normal force fetching I try to do only positive and negative reinforcement, that is increase the fetching behaviour.

Must be clear as mud by now- It does take time-I have always said this is not for everyone-some should just train their dogs

Dennis, it is often helpful to me, to be clear and state the behavior we are attempting to reinforce and/or punish. In your example the "fetch response".

However the terms used are happening all the time and aren't just applying to the behavior we're working on. Oten some behavior is being positively punished (we can't remove the pressure (negative reinforcement) without first applying it (positive punishment)), while we focus entirely on the behavior we're conditioning (in this example the FF).

Without paying close attention to how the total behavior of the dog is being affected, sudden undesireable responses appear that we missed in our focus to impact change in the behavior we're training.

Great thread thanks, learning and attempting understanding of operant conditioning helps me immensley, in examing my timing in training, and in describing how I'm achieving or not achieving training results.

All the best,

Wayne Dibbley

[Sundown49 aka Otey B]

Dennis, Thank you so very much for your posts. I have really enjoyed the "thinking" I have to do to wrap my mind around the concepts. I have been playing the HT game for several years now and I will be training my new pup for FT's only. I need all the help I can get..........

[john fallon]

I am quite familiar with this technique but would never assume it was effective because the second whistle had been paired with a strong correction. I think this is a simple case of immediately stopping the dog again to create presence ( a form of pressure?) and have the dog be more thoughtful about paying attention to the cast. This could work with a dog who has never even worn a collar! This is probably just good emergency handling rather than anything scientific!

PS. My fingers are feeling kinda tired answering a question that you now say you didn't ask. Rereading your question, I can't for the life of me see this is what you were talking about? In any case it's not secondary reinforcement

Cheers

I did not assume anything. The second whistle was in some instances followed by a vocalization.

Of course it is good emergency handling but rarely do I attribute anything to pure happenstance!
So ,rhetorically speaking of course, if not secondary reinforcement, is it not,something else that can be explained in behavorial scieance terminology ?

Thanks again for your time.
john