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Simplifying Dog Learning Science-Part 2

9K views 22 replies 18 participants last post by  Howard N 
#1 · (Edited)
I've had requests for more of this GobblyDeGook!
The following is something I have on Pressure and has retriever training examples.
Enjoy or hit delete!

Note:There is a phantom smilie half-way down that I can't get rid of-is somebody trying to tell me something? I also lost all my italics and underlines- I think it's tiime to go training!

Pressure

The behaviour of a dog is changed (increased or decreased) when rewards or aversives are added or taken away. For our retrievers, rewards are birds, praise, food, comfort and anything that makes them feel good. Aversives are scoldings, swats, e-collar nicks, cold water, briers and anything that makes them feel bad. Both are powerful so why do we dwell on the aversive? Think about that!

Pressure is an aversive. It can be mental stress or physical pain. It can be so strong it can overwhelm clear, thoughtful responses or it can be so weak, it is barely detected. In both cases the effects of pressure can accumulate over time to have a bigger effect. One effect is to condition the dog to withstand more or ignore-that is why nagging is so ineffective.

Rex Carr said the pressure of the correction must exceed the pressure of the cause. Example: The correction for creeping must be stronger than the reward of getting the bird. Unfortunately, when we do use extreme pressure in training not only can it be inhumane BUT we invariably have bad side-effects such as poor marking, poor attitude, loss of style, no-goes, bugging, popping. Direct pressure is powerful and widely used in Basics where we have a clean controlled situation. Back nick and Sit:stick and Fetch:pinch are examples of Direct pressure.

Rex and some other early retriever trainers discovered a method of using pressure that had fewer side-effects. It is called Indirect pressure a term which is not normally used by learning scientists or behaviourists. In retriever training we use Indirect Pressure to either increase a desired behaviour or decrease and undesired behaviour. The pressure is applied directly on some well-known and understood behaviour. This has an Indirect effect on the behaviour we want to change but because it is applied on something previously well reinforced and understood there are usually fewer side-effects. Indirect pressure acts like starting a new chain of behaviours. It’s like putting Johnny back in school! It gets their attention
Example 1. Dog prone to creep and be on it’s own at the line. Trainer has an obedience session on sit, here and heel using corrections until dog is soldier-like and thoughtful and paying attention. This Direct Pressure carries over Indirectly to pay attention at the line.
Example 2. Dog prone to slip whisles and go out of control on blind. Trainer takes dog back to swim-by pond or pilework and forces dog on back, reinforces sits and “here”s. This Direct pressure has an Indirect pressure affect on dog’s behaviours during the next cold blind.
Example 3. Dog doesn’t take cast given-scallops back when an angle cast is given. Trainer stops dog with sit whistle and gives a nick with e-collar and repeats cast. The Direct pressure on the sit has an Indirect Pressure effect on the dog who now takes the angle cast more accurately.
This latter example is the most commonly used example of Indirect pressure by retriever trainers. It uses negative reinforcement on the sit to improve casting. The dog has learned to sit quickly because the nick is removed after the whistle if he sits quickly. Note: We have learned that dogs understand this sequence and respond well even when we are slow and the nick is delayed (this can become positive punishment if the sit becomes slower).

Like it or not, the mainstay of much of today’s retriever training is the use of pressure. Much behaviour is shaped by using pressure even though wise use of praise coupled with pressure is very effective. Shaping is gradually reinforcing actions towards a desired behaviour. Example: think about a loopy sit gradually being shaped to a sharper and sharper quick sit on the whistle. You can use praise and an aversive to help the dog understand when he is doing better or not.

Take Home Lesson: All of this “learning” and all of the principles of learning theory are happening constantly while we train whether we can label it or not. Fortunately, you don’t need to understand the labels to use them. What you do have to understand is the following.

The dog’s behaviour at the instant that he gets praise or an aversive is the behaviour that is increased or decreased. You may be thinking four behaviours behind or ahead (dreaming of the ribbon) but the dog is simply reacting to the here and now! This why we always hear that timing when using the e-collar is so important. But this doesn’t mean that you have to be fast necessarily. It means that you have to be applying pressure or praise to the behaviour that is occurring not to some anticipated behaviour or to some older behaviour. Reading your dog is all about understanding and reacting the instant your dog is making a decision. What behaviour is in your dog’s mind?-that is what you are influencing.

So with all this Science,

“Reading your dog involves a lot of art”
 
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#2 ·
#4 ·
I agree with Chris....extremely generous... Love the Forum when it is like this!!

Appreciative Regards...

Bob and Judy
 
#6 ·
It's always nice to have a refresher. It really is a simple job, training I mean, when you get right down to the basics. It seems that people themselves complicate things and this is a wonderful reminder of our own faults.

Thanks
 
#7 ·
Dennis,
Again thank you.
I hope you do not mind. I just took the 30 seconds of effort to cut and paste both of these posts of yours.
The 10 FAQs and part 2 into WORD and then print them onto a page to tuck into my training journal. Along with diagrams of drills. That I bring out to the field when I am throwing to pass the time by reading.
BTW doing that got rid of your phantom smiley :)
You are cool!
Ken
 
#8 ·
The phantom smiley is a combination of some punctuation marks that Dennis likely unintentionally put together. For example, when I pair a semi-colon ; with a right hand close apostrophe ) , I believe I get a wink.

;) Let's see if that does it.

I have switched Dennis's editor interface to the enhanced Wysiwyg, which I strongly recommend to all users. It can be done by anyone logged in through the user cp settings.

Dennis, as I mentioned in the PM, your efforts are very much appreciated!

Chris
 
#9 ·
.
Example 3. Dog doesn’t take cast given-scallops back when an angle cast is given. Trainer stops dog with sit whistle and gives a nick with e-collar and repeats cast. The Direct pressure on the sit has an Indirect Pressure effect on the dog who now takes the angle cast more accurately.
This latter example is the most commonly used example of Indirect pressure by retriever trainers. It uses negative reinforcement on the sit to improve casting. The dog has learned to sit quickly because the nick is removed after the whistle if he sits quickly. Note: We have learned that dogs understand this sequence and respond well even when we are slow and the nick is delayed (this can become positive punishment if the sit becomes slower)
how?
(in the old days before the E-collar. and in present times by folk who do not use E-collars)
how was this correction made?
did the handler sit the dog, scamper out to the dog and apply a correction with a heeling stick, scamper back to the line and give the cast again?
or is example 3 something the Amish folk, by not choosing to use the tools available to us now, are unable to accomplish? I cannot imagine how they did it back then, or now. In example 3 specifically.
Ken
 
#12 ·
So to put this in training terms I am in right now, I have a dog that is going through "transition." He's been through Double T and Swim By, pattern blinds etc. He's now in the field. I always thought I understood the concept of "indirect" pressure until I read this thread.

If he "no goes" on a blind I step forward, "heel", nick, send "back" and he goes. In your example I think I have used indirect pressure (-veR) for moving forward on heel which he knows, which indirectly influenced his behavior to go when sent on "back" rather than applying consistent pressure on the back part of the equation which if applied then would be
-veP?

And once I got him into the field and running cold blinds, he was giving me a double look when I cast him left or right. I tried the nick on the sit (which would be considered indirect pressure and ideally would have improved him taking the cast?) but it didn't have much impact. He still was struggling. So we took him the whole way back to the Double T for several weeks.

Again, applying your explanations we took a sitiuation with which he was more familiar (DT) where we could use pressure in a controlled environment with which he was familiar to influence his responses, e.g. a verbal praise "good" when the cast was taken on the first signal a +veR, with a nick on the sit (-veR?) in instances where he did NOT respond on the first signal.

However the pressure and process we used in going back to Double T as a whole would be considered "indirect pressure" which we would ideally see transfer to more concise performance in the field?

Also, I am PMing you with an idea...

Thanks so much. Claudia
 
G
#13 ·
Hi Dennis,

Aren't examples one and two more an example of generalization than pressure? The dog realizes they should perform in the same manner whether it's the yard or the field?

I thought you and Mike (and whomever else) had always defined indirect pressure as pressure on one command for non-compliance on another command. So the pressure would only exist in the lessons for the examples #1 and #2. Then the dog would GENERALIZE that lesson over to the field -- just like it did in all other yard and drill work. Is the fact that it generalized the lesson and was well-behaved in the field considered a form of pressure?

Thanks for all the great contributions here.
 
#17 ·
Hi Dennis,

Aren't examples one and two more an example of generalization than pressure? The dog realizes they should perform in the same manner whether it's the yard or the field?

I thought you and Mike (and whomever else) had always defined indirect pressure as pressure on one command for non-compliance on another command. So the pressure would only exist in the lessons for the examples #1 and #2. Then the dog would GENERALIZE that lesson over to the field -- just like it did in all other yard and drill work. Is the fact that it generalized the lesson and was well-behaved in the field considered a form of pressure?

Thanks for all the great contributions here.
Hi Kristie-

Some comments on this and your next post about attention getters. .

My discussion of Pressure was meant to suggest that pressure comes not just from the obvious like the use of the e-collar. Pressure includes mental and physical pressure of all sorts.

Pressure on one thing can have an Indirect Pressure effect on another. Rex Carr long ago identified that if you put pressure on one unrelated thing you can have an Indirect effect on another. My 3 examples tried to emphasize that.

This is tricky business because we never know the effects of what we do might have on other things. We’re not all Rex’s you know!

Thus, the most prevalent use of Indirect pressure and the safest is like that in Example 3. - the “sit” whistle, nick to change a behaviour. Mike and I usually define it in simplest terms as you have identified. That is how we usually use it. You could replace command with event for a broader definition than the one that you quote.

We use the term generalization when dogs learn some behaviour in a particular environment or context and then adapt it to more situations. They generalize the lesson in one place to many places or from one set-up to many set-ups. The great dogs are adept at this!

In examples 1 and 2 I wasn’t expecting the dog to generalize the "lesson" per se to elsewhere but to respond better elsewhere because of the pressure. Sometimes Rex would do something totally different to get an effect and I try to do this also.

I also like to refer to indirect pressure as an attention getter-see my reference to getting Johnny back in school above. But, it’s more than just attention - it changes the mind set because of the pressure added. After all we hope the whistle is the attention getter and he stops!

In closing, I think it’s great that so many are thinking about this stuff to try and improve their training. These things are all "left brain" exercises to help you think-remember when you get out there and “just do it”, you’ll have to use your "right brain" and just react!

Cheers


 
G
#14 ·
Also, Dennis... I have described indirect pressure to the handlers I'm coaching as "an attention-getter". I feel that's what it really is in its simplest form. Take away all the science and analysis and it's really just "a flick on the ear" saying "hey, you know what I'm asking, settle down, pay attention and do the right thing"

I think that's what it really comes down to -- and it works best if you've really taught the dog well and it actually DOES understand what you're asking and is capable of doing it but has chosen not to for whatever reason.

Does this sound right?

-K
 
#15 ·
Dennis, Thank you for the excellent information.

I think I can explain your phantom Smiley. The smiley comes from the "colon" followed by a "p" in "Fetch : pinch" :p That is how you type in the characters for a "Razz" type smiley emoticon


I've had requests for more of this GobblyDeGook!

Note:There is a phantom smilie half-way down that I can't get rid of-is somebody trying to tell me something? I also lost all my italics and underlines- I think it's tiime to go training!

....

Basics where we have a clean controlled situation. Back nick and Sit:stick and Fetch:pinch are examples of Direct pressure.
 
#16 ·
Dennis, Thanks for taking the time to put that out there.

I especially liked
the principles of learning theory are happening constantly while we train whether we can label it or not
I think sometimes, especially new guys, we have to keep in mind that training/learning is constantly occuring. I find some new guys only think that their dog is learning while they are trying to tell it what to do, and don't realize the impact of everyday interactions can effect their dogs actons.
 
#18 ·
Thank you Dennis, all 3 of your threads have been very enlightening. Looking forward to more (and planning to call in my subscription to ROL!) Keep this up, it is what RTF needs! Jean
 
#19 ·
Thanks Dennis for your mini seminar posts. And thanks for the conversation we had over the telephone today. Hope I didn't take up much of your time.
 
#21 ·
...
Rex and some other early retriever trainers discovered a method of using pressure that had fewer side-effects. It is called Indirect pressure a term which is not normally used by learning scientists or behaviourists. In retriever training we use Indirect Pressure to either increase a desired behaviour or decrease and undesired behaviour. The pressure is applied directly on some well-known and understood behaviour. This has an Indirect effect on the behaviour we want to change but because it is applied on something previously well reinforced and understood [Emphasis added]there are usually fewer side-effects. Indirect pressure acts like starting a new chain of behaviours. ...
Long ago I tried to understand IP and asked someone I thought knew the answers for help. I tried to use words such as you did in the bolded portion above and was emphatically told I was all wet. The discussion went south rapidly and finally terminated with no resolution. Later I met a "behaviorist" and asked what was going on with IP. I gave an example Mike Lardy used in his first series in TRJ. The answer was "It is a back chained aversive." So, my only point is those folks don't use the term but do have a vocabulary to describe IP.

Jere
 
#23 ·
I was talking a few years back to a guy who did obedience in a big way. I told him how we used indirect pressure. He said, it was giving the dog something else to do and obedience types did it on a regular basis. I wish I had asked him to give me a couple of examples but I think we had another beer and talked about other trainers instead.
 
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