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Thread: Simplifying Dog Learning Science-Part 2

  1. #11
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    Ken,

    In the old days,I believe, the technique was pellets at 50-60 yds/whistle after the whistle sit was taught and stick forced in the yard.

    Dan Rice
    I hope to become the man my dogs think I am.--anon

  2. #12
    Senior Member Poodlegirl's Avatar
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    So to put this in training terms I am in right now, I have a dog that is going through "transition." He's been through Double T and Swim By, pattern blinds etc. He's now in the field. I always thought I understood the concept of "indirect" pressure until I read this thread.

    If he "no goes" on a blind I step forward, "heel", nick, send "back" and he goes. In your example I think I have used indirect pressure (-veR) for moving forward on heel which he knows, which indirectly influenced his behavior to go when sent on "back" rather than applying consistent pressure on the back part of the equation which if applied then would be
    -veP?

    And once I got him into the field and running cold blinds, he was giving me a double look when I cast him left or right. I tried the nick on the sit (which would be considered indirect pressure and ideally would have improved him taking the cast?) but it didn't have much impact. He still was struggling. So we took him the whole way back to the Double T for several weeks.

    Again, applying your explanations we took a sitiuation with which he was more familiar (DT) where we could use pressure in a controlled environment with which he was familiar to influence his responses, e.g. a verbal praise "good" when the cast was taken on the first signal a +veR, with a nick on the sit (-veR?) in instances where he did NOT respond on the first signal.

    However the pressure and process we used in going back to Double T as a whole would be considered "indirect pressure" which we would ideally see transfer to more concise performance in the field?

    Also, I am PMing you with an idea...

    Thanks so much. Claudia

  3. #13
    Kristie Wilder
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    Hi Dennis,

    Aren't examples one and two more an example of generalization than pressure? The dog realizes they should perform in the same manner whether it's the yard or the field?

    I thought you and Mike (and whomever else) had always defined indirect pressure as pressure on one command for non-compliance on another command. So the pressure would only exist in the lessons for the examples #1 and #2. Then the dog would GENERALIZE that lesson over to the field -- just like it did in all other yard and drill work. Is the fact that it generalized the lesson and was well-behaved in the field considered a form of pressure?

    Thanks for all the great contributions here.

  4. #14
    Kristie Wilder
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    Also, Dennis... I have described indirect pressure to the handlers I'm coaching as "an attention-getter". I feel that's what it really is in its simplest form. Take away all the science and analysis and it's really just "a flick on the ear" saying "hey, you know what I'm asking, settle down, pay attention and do the right thing"

    I think that's what it really comes down to -- and it works best if you've really taught the dog well and it actually DOES understand what you're asking and is capable of doing it but has chosen not to for whatever reason.

    Does this sound right?

    -K

  5. #15
    Senior Member BBnumber1's Avatar
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    Dennis, Thank you for the excellent information.

    I think I can explain your phantom Smiley. The smiley comes from the "colon" followed by a "p" in "Fetch : pinch" That is how you type in the characters for a "Razz" type smiley emoticon


    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieversONLINE View Post
    I've had requests for more of this GobblyDeGook!

    Note:There is a phantom smilie half-way down that I can't get rid of-is somebody trying to tell me something? I also lost all my italics and underlines- I think it's tiime to go training!

    ....

    Basics where we have a clean controlled situation. Back nick and Sit:stick and Fetchinch are examples of Direct pressure.
    -=#David

    Well, this started off as a really interesting thread. Too bad we couldn't keep it that way. (Rick_C 2009, Classic RTF)
    __________________________________________________ _
    Take what you get and thank them (the Judges) afterwards no matter what the outcome. (Moira Sheehan)

  6. #16
    Senior Member Bud's Avatar
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    Dennis, Thanks for taking the time to put that out there.

    I especially liked
    the principles of learning theory are happening constantly while we train whether we can label it or not
    I think sometimes, especially new guys, we have to keep in mind that training/learning is constantly occuring. I find some new guys only think that their dog is learning while they are trying to tell it what to do, and don't realize the impact of everyday interactions can effect their dogs actons.
    Terry "Bud" Cunningham
    Kankakee River HRC

  7. #17
    Senior Member RetrieversONLINE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder View Post
    Hi Dennis,

    Aren't examples one and two more an example of generalization than pressure? The dog realizes they should perform in the same manner whether it's the yard or the field?

    I thought you and Mike (and whomever else) had always defined indirect pressure as pressure on one command for non-compliance on another command. So the pressure would only exist in the lessons for the examples #1 and #2. Then the dog would GENERALIZE that lesson over to the field -- just like it did in all other yard and drill work. Is the fact that it generalized the lesson and was well-behaved in the field considered a form of pressure?

    Thanks for all the great contributions here.
    Hi Kristie-

    Some comments on this and your next post about attention getters. .

    My discussion of Pressure was meant to suggest that pressure comes not just from the obvious like the use of the e-collar. Pressure includes mental and physical pressure of all sorts.

    Pressure on one thing can have an Indirect Pressure effect on another. Rex Carr long ago identified that if you put pressure on one unrelated thing you can have an Indirect effect on another. My 3 examples tried to emphasize that.

    This is tricky business because we never know the effects of what we do might have on other things. We’re not all Rex’s you know!

    Thus, the most prevalent use of Indirect pressure and the safest is like that in Example 3. - the “sit” whistle, nick to change a behaviour. Mike and I usually define it in simplest terms as you have identified. That is how we usually use it. You could replace command with event for a broader definition than the one that you quote.

    We use the term generalization when dogs learn some behaviour in a particular environment or context and then adapt it to more situations. They generalize the lesson in one place to many places or from one set-up to many set-ups. The great dogs are adept at this!

    In examples 1 and 2 I wasn’t expecting the dog to generalize the "lesson" per se to elsewhere but to respond better elsewhere because of the pressure. Sometimes Rex would do something totally different to get an effect and I try to do this also.

    I also like to refer to indirect pressure as an attention getter-see my reference to getting Johnny back in school above. But, it’s more than just attention - it changes the mind set because of the pressure added. After all we hope the whistle is the attention getter and he stops!

    In closing, I think it’s great that so many are thinking about this stuff to try and improve their training. These things are all "left brain" exercises to help you think-remember when you get out there and “just do it”, you’ll have to use your "right brain" and just react!

    Cheers


    Dennis

  8. #18
    Senior Member jgrammer's Avatar
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    Thank you Dennis, all 3 of your threads have been very enlightening. Looking forward to more (and planning to call in my subscription to ROL!) Keep this up, it is what RTF needs! Jean

  9. #19
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    Thanks Dennis for your mini seminar posts. And thanks for the conversation we had over the telephone today. Hope I didn't take up much of your time.
    Gentle in what you do. Firm in how you do it.

    CH SILVERCREEK MURRAY SAMUEL (MURRAY) WDQ CGC MH *** 2/16/00 - 12/26/12
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE (LARRY son of Murray) WDQ MH ***
    LPK DELAWARE RIVER WHISPERING COVE (SAVAGE SAM son of FC Chester MH) work in progress
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE JAY ** ( work in progress, Larry's son and Murray's grandson)

  10. #20
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    I add my "much obliged" to the rest. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
    Terry Moseley
    Bad Motor Scooter SH

    He that tooteth not his own horn...The same shall not be tooted.

    There could be 5 or 6 ninjas in this room right now.

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