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Thread: fairness Question in Brit FT's

  1. #1
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    Default fairness Question in Brit FT's

    I was reading in the event section of a british event which will take place I have heard a bit about these trials and that many dogs are on line and wait their turn to retrieve. Also all game is retrieved crippled or not. I was wondering about the last dog to work in that group of dogs. Lets say after an half hour of watching other dogs retrieve the dead birds,,,then you are sent and your bird is lightly crippled, and that it left the country a long time ago.
    How does that work as far as judging.
    It doesnt seem fair that that one dog has to track most likely in vein through all those other dog and bird scents
    How is that judged
    Pete.

  2. #2
    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    First, that scenario is highly unlikely. The judges will always have the crippled birds retreived first. The judges instruct the handlers on which bird to retrieve.
    However, if the scenario did happen, It would probably go like this:

    The judges would send one dog for it. If he failed, they would send another. If he also failed they would go out and check for the bird. If they determined that the bird had run off 30 minutes prior, then they would probably not penalize either dog and would carry them to the next test.

    Typically British trial judges are judging with the criteria of:

    Collect all the birds.
    Collect wounded birds first and dispatch them in minimum time.

    A dog that does that efficiently and with good manners will score highly.

    Typically the judges are experienced and cognizant of the factors affecting a dog's performance in retrieving. By the way, professional trainers are allowed to judge in British trials.


    Best Regards,
    Robert Milner
    www.duckhillkennels.com

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    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
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    Robert, I'm curious as to the retrieve the wounded birds first. How does that work with primary/secondary selection and marking? Is there a lot of handling in tests?

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    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Troy,
    Imagine that a line of pheasant hunters is walking line abreast across a beet field in North Dakota flushing pheasants and shooting them. There are 4 dogs (and 2 judges) interspersed across the line.
    The guns knock down 3 or 4 birds. The line stops for the retrieves. The judge on the left side of the line thinks that a bird 75 yards out to the right has been crippled. He tells the handler of dog #3 to retrieve that bird. If dog #3 happens to have been looking to the right when that particular bird was hit, then it is a mark. If #3 happened to be looking to the left at other activities when that bird was hit, then it will be a blind. The judge doesn't care. He wants the dog to retrieve the cripple with a minimum disturbance of cover and without chasing any freshly flushed birds. He expects the dog to track down and collect the cripple, also without chasing freshly flushed birds. If it happens to be a blind for #3, then the judge expects the handling to be crisp, without undue noise from the handler. It is much more about getting the bird than it is differentiating between a mark and a blind.

    Best Regards,
    Robert Milner

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    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
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    Thanks for the clarification Robert. So even more so than marking and handling, the dogs must be able to use handler selection.

    What kind of distances are we talking here? I'm assuming they very greatly because of the attempt at a natural hunting simulation with wounded gliders and such.

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    Senior Member TroyFeeken's Avatar
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    Also looking back to the fairness of the test, how can dogs be rated against each other as each one receives a different type of mark or blind? To one dog the bird is indented, to another it's not. Or inline, etc.

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    Troy will you be entering a dog?

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    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    Also looking back to the fairness of the test, how can dogs be rated against each other as each one receives a different type of mark or blind? To one dog the bird is indented, to another it's not. Or inline, etc.
    Fairness is not considered and is not a concern. Each dog is judged on his performance on whatever test fate hands him. He is judged as to how well he does finding and retrieving the particular bird which he is instructed to retrieve.

  9. #9
    Senior Member rmilner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroyFeeken View Post
    Thanks for the clarification Robert. So even more so than marking and handling, the dogs must be able to use handler selection.

    What kind of distances are we talking here? I'm assuming they very greatly because of the attempt at a natural hunting simulation with wounded gliders and such.
    The distances do vary greatly. It is a common practice in walkups to have dogs and judges walking at near each end of the line, which could extend 200 yards across a field. Often the judges on the left end will send a dog from that left end to retrieve a shot off the right end, giving a retrieve of 150 yds +. Most of the retrieves are probably under 100 yds.

    The big culture shocker to me at the first field trial I attended was watching a handler send a dog off into heavy tall cover for a bird. The dog is totally out of sight for 15 minutes and then reappears either with a bird or without. If he is without a bird, then the next dog is sent.

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    Thanks Robert
    I meant to post that question on the general forum
    I goofed but it looks like it turned out fine.
    British trials seem very difficult and a whole different ball game and training regiment
    Thanks again
    Pete

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