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Is This What You Expect In Junior

11K views 93 replies 46 participants last post by  Angie B 
#1 ·
Forced to use a small pond the Junior judges set up two series that both had the same starting line, both were a combo water/land and handlers were told on both series to make sure their dog got wet or handle them into the water. The first series had a 30 yard run to the heart of the pond while the second just clipped an edge of the pond.

Question: Are Junior dogs expected to be decheated and handled "if they don't get wet?"
 
#2 ·
The short answer? No.

The long answer? He!! no.

This is a perfect example of judges letting the test run them instead of them running the test. Handling is allowed in Junior, on one mark. It is not REQUIRED. To instruct Junior handlers to handle their dogs if they cheat the water is a cop-out. If you can't set up a test to PROPERLY test dogs at the test level you accepted, don't accept the invitation to judge.

Inviting junior dogs to commit a Moderate fault because of the test design is a GREAT representation of poor test setup.

:mad:..................

kg
 
#5 ·
This is a perfect example of judges letting the test run them instead of them running the test. Handling is allowed in Junior, on one mark. It is not REQUIRED. To instruct Junior handlers to handle their dogs if they cheat the water is a cop-out. If you can't set up a test to PROPERLY test dogs at the test level you accepted, don't accept the invitation to judge. kg
It's my understanding that this pair of judges have a reputation for setting up cheaty tests in Junior. Go figure.
 
#3 ·
What Keith said.
 
#51 ·
Somebody did and the judges response was you can handle and this is a water test the dogs need to get wet.

This was done by two diffrent sets of judges over the same weekend. The 2nd day the same thing. your dog cheats your dropped.

The JH test all weekend was a poor example of a Junior test. THe JH program is hurting for new people and they want to pull this sort of stuff.
 
#12 ·
Sad and disheartning to most likely young or inexperienced handlers. This is not saying that JR handlers are the above but this is where the kids and newby start right? I watched a JR test last year that hand the drive into the gallery through the line. First bird thrown into the sun against a tree line, second bird thrown with 8 obsticals to over come and out to probably 100 yards. Ditches, tall grass, open ground more high cover, another ditch etc... it was hard to watch, especially the kids that couldn't pass this. I understand not giving ribbons away but come on, in the eye's of AKC where should a JR dog be at in it's HUNTING life. That's why it's called "hunt test" right?
 
#13 · (Edited)
I would want the JH dog be able to do any HT mark as a "single" , which by my definition is a single mark thrown by the only gun station in the dogs field of view or influencing the work on the mark.
That means no cross wind, past the Flier crates from the other series scent cone marks;)

With that said, I do not philosphically approve of the cheat for it's own sake clip the corner mark described in the first post of this thread.

john
 
#15 ·
I will be judging some JH events later this summer/fall.

I copied some of this thread and will keep this in mind.
(in my notebook)

Thanks, I mean it!
These are good points.

I want the tests I am involved in to be fair and honest for the assesment of basic dog talent.


In a situation where water is limited, would it be better to have a square entry across the water onto more land?
With the given scenario, what would be the best way to set this up?

(hypothetical of course, since we don't get to see it)
 
#16 ·
I have a question.
Isn't a Jr. suppose to pick up a simple mark on an average days hunt.
Now angle entrees are extremely common when hunting and knocking birds down on the corner of a pond are common.
So other than its ruining your training what would be wrong with a dog that skirts the tip of a pond and gets the bird.

Walking a Jr dog to the line without a correction is also ruining the training.

I would agree with John here. And I would not penalize a dog for it,,,I'm not a judge but if I were ,,,who cares if they skirt a little piece of water. Big dogs do it all the time. We dont complain that the judges are ruining our master dogs. Or the open dogs.

Its a hunting test. Young Dogs run all over hell anyway and do all kinds of thing that are inappropriate.

It depends on ones philosophy I guess

Pete
 
#17 ·
KISS( Keep It Simple, Stupid) should be in effect at a junior. You don't need to be a real bright human to fool the average lab or Chessie or swamp collie for that matter, 4 straight forward retrieves with no tricks and a minimum of distractions and you will still lose dogs.
 
#18 ·
We had the same sort of tests in NC at a Junior last year. The judges' instructions were that the dogs had to "get wet" going, but not coming back. It didn't work out as most of the dogs ran the bank and the judges didn't mark them down as the bank runners were way in the majority. What did the dogs get out of the test? A chance to learn bank running. Sometimes the grounds are limited and the judges imagination is tested to put something fair and simple together.
 
#19 ·
We had the same sort of tests in NC at a Junior last year. The judges' instructions were that the dogs had to "get wet" going, but not coming back. It didn't work out as most of the dogs ran the bank and the judges didn't mark them down as the bank runners were way in the majority. What did the dogs get out of the test? A chance to learn bank running. Sometimes the grounds are limited and the judges imagination is tested to put something fair and simple together.
I've seen too many of those in recent years myself. :mad: But, I've figured out that it's mostly limited to a few judges who should know better, so I just quit entering their tests. Problem solved. I think it's also up to the club committee to make SURE the JH group gets appropriate water too. Another sore spot to me is when they use the crappiest birds (rotted in the sun the day before) for JH and say "sorry, we only have enough for one live flyer" even though we all paid for 2. Anne
 
#21 ·
I am not going to defend any one but the JR usually get the bottom of the barrel for water in tests but that is still no excuse. My wife loves judging JR dogs and I feel she does a really good job at it. I personally would rather judge higher end dogs but have and will judge Jr dogs and will be fair, move up to waters edge move over and be less critical of young new dogs.
All of us have been there with the hand shaking so much at the line and when you send your dog and your mouth so dry you can't even say your dogs name, give them a break and set up a good but fair test and judge it accordingly above all have fun and remember when you started there were a lot people rooting for you and your dog to do well gallery and judges.
Bottom line do we all avoid judges we feel are unfair to our style of dogs or of us. Yes. But having to avoid a JR judge is really a shame!

David Jansma
 
#22 ·
I think a possible solution to the cheating could be a square water entry, even if that meant the drop zone was on land.
So maybe the dog would swim 30-40 yards vs. 80-100 with a provacative cheat set up.

Thoughts?
 
#23 ·
It is one of my pet peeves that junior gets the hindmost in terms of land water birds and sometimes judges at certain hunt tests. The folks coming to junior are the newbies generally and we should want them to come back next year., additionally junior is the moneymaker for many clubs, for that alone it deserves better.
 
#25 ·
In the described pond area, the only way I would set it up is with the line right at the waters edge and straght in. Water test for a jr does not have to be long, 15-20 yds would be long enough. The second water test would be set up around the edge a bit to another section of the pond. If you insist on the dogs getting wet, place the bird in the water, not on the shore. Juniors are the lifeblood of the HT sport. If we lose or scare them away before giving them the opportunity to "win" and get a feel for it, we will be doing ourselves a great disfavor. I agree with Richard, we should welcome juniors with a "KISS". Bud
 
#26 · (Edited)
So does this mean that in the 1st series there was a land mark and a water mark? And does this mean that the water mark was a total length of 30 yrds with the bird falling in the middle of the pond??? If so, that does not sound too cheaty since in order to get the bird, the dog must enter the water...

Does it mean in the 2nd series, there is also a land mark and a water mark? You did not say if that water bird fell into the water/or on land requiring the dog to get in the water to retrieve it. You also didn't say if there were obstacles along the shore to prevent the young dog from running around the pond.

Also, you did not mention that Texas is (hopefully at the end of) in a drought which is a humdinger. The last drought this bad was in 1890 - according to a radio forcaster on the radio this week . The water availability is awful! Our test next week will not offer either Seniors or Juniors on Sunday because we do not have enough water!

It seems to be very acceptable to gripe on RTF about any judge/test who/that doesn't meet the standard of the person posting his/her complaint. It is also a given that most will jump on the bandwagon of the poster, they were not at the event and are not familiar with regional issues. It would really be nice to hear from other knowledgeable people who were at the event and perhaps more unbiased than a junior handler.

I have learned that just because I (or anyone else) failed a test, it does not always mean that it was a bad test (nor does it mean because I passed a test that it was a good test). Also, I have learned that until you get in the judges chair, sharpen that judging pencil, and know what all of the restrictions, conditions, etc. are, you probably do not have an unbiased perspective in regard to the situation. I have also learned that if you do not like the grounds, club, judges, or your dog is not ready for a tests, you are not forced to enter the event...just something to think about...
 
#35 ·
Nancy,
Everything you wrote has nothing to do with the original question.

Question: Are Junior dogs expected to be decheated and handled "if they don't get wet?"

It's a very simple question. In my opinion Junior tests that encourage a young dog to cheat the bank should be discouraged. Like Keith wrote, you are allowed one handle in a Junior test, but handling should not be required to pass. In this case a dog that put one foot in the water (got wet) and then ran the bank passed.
 
#28 · (Edited)
The JHT should not be a place where one can go and expect to pass with a dog with no field traits present at all, or if present in the dog , not honed to the point that it could do a (1)mark with enough factors that it (the mark)could be a meaningfull part of a multiple........... but done as a single.john
 
#29 · (Edited)
That is not what I said. I said any HT mark is is not appropriate as a JH mark. And the JH title should not be a give me.
 
#32 ·
Let's face it, there are Judges out there who set up great challenging tests regardless of the land and water they are assigned, and just about everyone, if they pass or not, enjoy the challenge.

And then, there are Judges who shouldn't be given a Judges Book and a pencil. They could have the best land and water available and still manage to screw up as they have no knowledge of dogs or the rules of the game.

My question is 'Where is the Hunt Committee?". They have the authority to either pass the test or not.

Lord, deliver us from Prima Donnas who think they know it all. Good Judges are worth their weight in Gold. They know the rules and are blessed with common sense.
 
#41 ·
My question is 'Where is the Hunt Committee?". They have the authority to either pass the test or not.
Not exactly true. The Committee can only disapprove a test if it either a) Is contrary to the rules or b) is unsafe. I've had to approve tests that I wasn't personally fond of.

The club did a great job managing 3 Master tests and a Jr on Saturday, given the fact that they were displaced from their usual grounds by the PRTA. (Give them their props too, for managing their fall test the way they did by splitting it into two weekends to work around the Nat'l Open).

Mark
 
#36 · (Edited)
Ken,

You described the test and comments that the judges were to have made to the entrants. Whether their response was to a question about handling from a junior handler is not obvious. But I do not think that the judges expect junior dogs to handle nor do they try to set up tests to require those skills. I think many of my comments clarify the water situation in Texas to those who are so quick to criticize without firsthand knowledge.

Your question about whether a junior dog should be decheated and take casts would be "yes" if it were my junior dog. Apparently that is not the answer that you would give. What I have always heard is to train one level above the test you are running. But I also would not want to postpone training skills for the senior level until I had the junior title nor would I quit with a junior title.

Regards,
Nancy
 
#47 ·
Your question about whether a junior dog should be decheated and take casts would be "yes" if it were my junior dog. Apparently that is not the answer that you would give. What I have always heard is to train one level above the test you are running. But I also would not want to postpone training skills for the senior level until I had the junior title nor would I quit with a junior title.
This shouldn't be a question about "your" dog or "my" dog, but about the intent of the "standard" for hunt tests. As performance people we all seem to have a universal disdain for show breeders and their "pigadors" and their bastardization of the breed standard. But aren't we doing the same thing here in interpreting the hunt test standard to fit our needs and desires? If you have an all-age dog and you choose to run him in a junior hunt test, he shouldn't be expected to do anything more than required by the hunt test rules just because he can. Do you think derby judges should tell handlers during the handlers meeting that they should handle their dogs if they don't get wet? I always thought handling wasn't allowed in derby nor required in Junior.
 
#38 ·
Most junior dogs are not decheated nor do they handle. Many folks at that level are unaware of what a handle is or how to decheat. A fair number of these dogs have never seen let alone had to retrieve fresh shot game. Therein lies the problem, the program is an entry point for many into retriever games. Those of us who are hip deep in retrievers want these folks to have success because we want them to come back, while at the same time we know that the tests cannot be gimmies.

Too many folks seem to think setting up a junior is rocket sceienc, it is not. Four decent marks that are appropriate for the level being tested is all that is required. In most if not all instances you will still get answers, mostly from the dogs lack of training. I see a majority of dogs fail because they are not forced; which means they don't deal well with changes of cover, small ditches, getting wet and the biggest sin of all they don't know how to handle slightly live game. I cannot begin to count the number of dogs I have seen in junior fail to pick up a flapping not uite dead duck, many simply circle it like the indians around the wagon train in a western, or they blink it, or if they pick it up they drop it on the return and refuse to pick it up again. A fair number of dogs also fail because they won't deliver to hand, even after repeated 'fetch it up knucklehead' commands(when I start counting fetch em ups the dog is in trouble, and I rarely start until 5 on one bird)

Some judges need to remember we are not there to fail dogs, the dogs should do that on their own in a junior without tests that are set up to get rid of dogs.
 
#39 ·
Jr HT mark should not be a "give me", but any dog with enough drive to go 60-100 yards on 2 land marks and hand deliver, then go in the water for a couple water marks and hand deliver, should pass as long as their walk to the line is acceptable. Marks should not be difficult to find, nothing tricky, no re-entry (Howard:p) no driving up hills, no angle entry, etc. Bud
 
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