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Thread: Credit where due

  1. #21
    Senior Member Keith Farmer's Avatar
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    That is cool Corey.

    I still do not have an answer, though, as to why the use of embryonic stem cells seem to be such a huge interest as opposed to adult stem cells. What I want to understand from someone who knows is what advantageous benefit is there by using embryonic stem cells over adult stem cells?

    If you have any published data touting the positive outcome of embryonic stem cell usage (not just hype about what could be) please share that...I would appreciate the info...seriously.

    This is from a dad of three wonderful children via IVF...I thank God everyday for them and for the opportunity that we have for more. I do not trust Obama, however, one bit. You...I'm not so worried about.

    KF
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Gen 1:1 NKJV)... 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4NKJV)

    No evolution, no monkey ancestors, no big bang!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Keith Farmer's Avatar
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    I think this is close to what I am asking about:

    1) It appears that Harvard Stem Cell Institute (as do a few others world wide) derive/or wish to derive most of their embryonic stem cell lines from a technique called somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) IE cloning...from their (Harvard's) web site:

    "The first human ES cells were derived from surplus embryos generated during in vitro fertilization (IVF) treatment. More recently, however, the technique of somatic cell nuclear transfer into unfertilized eggs offers the possibility of creating human ES cells whose genetic makeup matches that of the donor."
    Also,

    "Our overall aim is to bring stem cells to the clinic as quickly as possible..."
    From Wikipedia:

    "...Somatic cell nuclear transfer is a laboratory technique for creating a clonal embryo...."

    "...After many mitotic divisions in culture, this single cell forms a blastocyst (an early stage embryo with about 100 cells) with almost identical DNA to the original organism...."

    Here is a link to the entire Wikipedia page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic...clear_transfer

    This certainly does not sound like left over IVF embryos to me...in fact, that is dispelled in the quote above.

    Further, it appears that embryonic stem cells have a distinct advantage (at least a perceived advantage) over adult stem cells in that adult stem cells are limited as to what they can "morph" into where as embryonic stem cells can basically "morph" into any kind of cell...right/wrong? This explains the push for the research as I wanted to know.

    This whole thing smells fishy. Cloning embryos (does not count as a clone until implantation remember), distributing them world wide...(see below from this web site):http: //www.mcb.harvard.edu/melton/hues/ :

    "...As with all of our published reagents, it is our intention to make these cell lines as freely available to the research community as possible. In this instance, the HUES cells may be subject to patent and federal or state legislative restrictions that are beyond our control. Harvard University and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) have worked hard to establish a simple procedure that will enable us to provide the cells to the research community with as few encumbrances as possible..."

    Where does it end? Remember, one characteristic of a narcicist is that the methodolgies used by one are justifiable as long as the end goal of their desire is met. I am really concerned about someone who says that moral values do not matter as long as science is advanced (Obama).

    By the way, all the talk about blastocysts, embryos, etc. are terms derived from the eugenically based evolutionary chart are they not? In mimic form of so-called human race evolution an individual person also "evolves" through various stages. That is why scientists can determine what stage "life" begins according to a flow chart of evolutionary divisions. Here is how it goes (correct me if I am wrong):

    stage 1)-Sperm and egg become a zygote
    stage 2)-Zygote becomes a blastocyst
    stage-3)-Blastocyst becomes an embryo
    stage-4)-Embryo becomes a fetus
    stage-5)- Fetus becomes an infant
    stage-6)-Infant becomes a child
    stage-7)-Child becomes an adult
    stage-8)-Adult becomes a geriatric (old person)
    stage-9)-Geriatric becomes a corpse

    The question becomes what determines a "person's" value? Is it completing a certain stage? Is it size, weight, complexity? Is it one's value to society? Is it the inheritance of rights (as Obama discussed in his senate floor speech against BAIPA)?

    If the earliest stages are defined as not being a human then why? What about the later stage...is that the next step in devaluaing people? It was in germany:

    Viktor Brack:

    “In many hospitals and nursing homes of the Reich there are countless people with incurable diseases of every kind, people who are of no use at all to the rest of humanity, who are only a burden on society, incurring endless costs for their maintenance, and there is absolutely no prospect of these people ever recovering and becoming useful members of society again. They sit and vegetate like animals, they are social misfits undeserving of life – and yet physically they are perfectly healthy human beings who may well live on for many more years. They eat the food that could be given to others, and in many cases they need twice or three times as much nursing care. The rest of society needs to be protected against these people. Given that we need to make provision now for keeping healthy people alive, it is all the more necessary to get rid of these creatures first, even if only to take better care for now of the curable patients in our hospitals and nursing homes. The space thus freed up is needed for all kinds of things essential to the war effort: military hospitals, civilian hospitals and auxiliary hospitals.”

    I am done now.
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Gen 1:1 NKJV)... 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4NKJV)

    No evolution, no monkey ancestors, no big bang!

  3. #23
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Farmer View Post
    I think this is close to what I am asking about:

    1) It appears that Harvard Stem Cell Institute (as do a few others world wide) derive/or wish to derive most of their embryonic stem cell lines from a technique called somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) IE cloning...from their (Harvard's) web site:

    Kieth This is done in an effort to create a line that they can use that will require no embryonic stem cells once that line is established.



    Also,



    From Wikipedia:

    "...Somatic cell nuclear transfer is a laboratory technique for creating a clonal embryo...."

    "...After many mitotic divisions in culture, this single cell forms a blastocyst (an early stage embryo with about 100 cells) with almost identical DNA to the original organism...."

    Wikipedia Sort of yes but not exactly

    Here is a link to the entire Wikipedia page:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatic...clear_transfer

    This certainly does not sound like left over IVF embryos to me...in fact, that is dispelled in the quote above.

    Actually yes they are and that is the point. They are using the limited left over embryos they are able to get and then using the genetic material to "clone" more. It is not easy to obtain them. I have only sent them less than 10 total in the past three years and that took months of paperwork and hoop jumping to get it done.

    Further, it appears that embryonic stem cells have a distinct advantage (at least a perceived advantage) over adult stem cells in that adult stem cells are limited as to what they can "morph" into where as embryonic stem cells can basically "morph" into any kind of cell...right/wrong? This explains the push for the research as I wanted to know.

    Yes in short that is the answer. "Adult" stem cells seem to be somewhat programed as to what they may become whereas embryonic stem cells are not and have the potential to become anything.

    This whole thing smells fishy. Cloning embryos (does not count as a clone until implantation remember), distributing them world wide...(see below from this web site):http: //www.mcb.harvard.edu/melton/hues/ :

    "...As with all of our published reagents, it is our intention to make these cell lines as freely available to the research community as possible. In this instance, the HUES cells may be subject to patent and federal or state legislative restrictions that are beyond our control. Harvard University and the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) have worked hard to establish a simple procedure that will enable us to provide the cells to the research community with as few encumbrances as possible..."

    Where does it end? Remember, one characteristic of a narcicist is that the methodolgies used by one are justifiable as long as the end goal of their desire is met. I am really concerned about someone who says that moral values do not matter as long as science is advanced (Obama).

    you are missing the point of this. They are creating cell lines that will keep going and by doing so they will not need as many/any cells from embryos.
    One thing to keep in mind is that the field of science is one that still maintains a very high level of integrity. Honesty and sharing with your peers both for the sake of research as well as a review of your methods, techniques, and results is a big part of “doing business”. Once these lines are created they can/will be shared with other researchers to further their work and again reduce the number of embryos needed to continue such research. Keep in mind that these cell lines are very protected by the facilities that created them and it is not like you can pick up the phone and call Harvard and order a couple of dozen, it is just not an easy thing to do even for those who are truly in the field. It is most unfortunate that much of what people hear and believe is far from the truth. You know well that IVF is a good thing and that in MOST hands it is done responsibly, however, we all know about octomom, so of course just like any profession there are bad apples and most of those are outcast from their peers (the fool doctor responsible for octomom is an outcast in our professional society and has been for a long time). Will “bad” things ever happen with ESC’s, who knows but in my professional opinion it will not.

    By the way, all the talk about blastocysts, embryos, etc. are terms derived from the eugenically based evolutionary chart are they not? In mimic form of so-called human race evolution an individual person also "evolves" through various stages. That is why scientists can determine what stage "life" begins according to a flow chart of evolutionary divisions. Here is how it goes (correct me if I am wrong):

    I will have to say you are wrong. I am not sure, however, I am sure the terms zygote, morula (you forgot one if you want to follow this chart) and blastocyst go way back, I will have to pull out my old developmental bio book at the office tomorrow. This chart is also wrong in that a zygote (two pronuclear bodies) and a blastocyst ARE EMBRYOS so while a zygote becomes a morula and then a blastocyst, all are already embryos so truely sperm and egg become embryo.... Note some people do use the term "pre embryo" but it is not a standard thing

    stage 1)-Sperm and egg become a zygote
    stage 2)-Zygote becomes a blastocyst
    stage-3)-Blastocyst becomes an embryo
    stage-4)-Embryo becomes a fetus
    stage-5)- Fetus becomes an infant
    stage-6)-Infant becomes a child
    stage-7)-Child becomes an adult
    stage-8)-Adult becomes a geriatric (old person)
    stage-9)-Geriatric becomes a corpse

    The question becomes what determines a "person's" value? Is it completing a certain stage? Is it size, weight, complexity? Is it one's value to society? Is it the inheritance of rights (as Obama discussed in his senate floor speech against BAIPA)?

    If the earliest stages are defined as not being a human then why? What about the later stage...is that the next step in devaluaing people? It was in germany:

    Viktor Brack:

    “In many hospitals and nursing homes of the Reich there are countless people with incurable diseases of every kind, people who are of no use at all to the rest of humanity, who are only a burden on society, incurring endless costs for their maintenance, and there is absolutely no prospect of these people ever recovering and becoming useful members of society again. They sit and vegetate like animals, they are social misfits undeserving of life – and yet physically they are perfectly healthy human beings who may well live on for many more years. They eat the food that could be given to others, and in many cases they need twice or three times as much nursing care. The rest of society needs to be protected against these people. Given that we need to make provision now for keeping healthy people alive, it is all the more necessary to get rid of these creatures first, even if only to take better care for now of the curable patients in our hospitals and nursing homes. The space thus freed up is needed for all kinds of things essential to the war effort: military hospitals, civilian hospitals and auxiliary hospitals.”

    I am done now.
    The bottom stuff.....I don;t know I have been too busy tearing up the permit and other fish for the past few days. Maybe I will get back into it tomorrow at work, but then again I think tomorrow at work will be spent wishing I was on the permits....

    BTW- for those who do not know. I am not a stem cell researcher. I am an embryologist(cell biologist) and do send embryos to a couple of programs. I may not be an "expert" but I am very "in the loop" and this is a constant journal and conference topic.
    Last edited by badbullgator; 03-12-2009 at 08:31 AM.
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  4. #24
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Keith
    No fishing today so let’s see if I can go into this a bit more. A few things that are showing great promise include clinical trails that are about to begin in spinal cord repair that may treat paraplegia (note clinical trial only occur when great success has been realized in the lab and the research has undergone GREAT scrutiny form many places including the FDA. As mentioned before pancreatic beta cells islet cells HAVE been produced and will go a long way in the treatment and prevention (maybe “cure”) of diabetes. Treatment of myocardial infarction, retinal repair, and drug development are others that are showing not only the promise of working, but very good evidence that they do.
    Right now there are 22 lines of embryonic stem cells that ARE used and funded already, so we are not really talking about lifting a total ban on the funding of embryonic stem cell research anyway. What we are talking about it limiting the variety of cells that can be funded. It is kind of like saying “you can only be paid for training goldens, you can train a better dog, a lab, but no funding for you for that” (no offence golden folks). Lifting the funding ban on new lines of cells is not as big a deal as it is made out to be by some in regards to the overall picture of stem cell research.
    Embryonic stem cells (ESC) are far more “plastic” than adult or fetal stem cells. ESC’s are truly pluripotent (can develop into anything) and the others, adult, fetal, and the various others are all truly adult stem cells and are multipotent, meaning they can develop into different things, but they are somewhat preprogrammed and what they can become is limited. Now recently some researchers have caused specialized adult skin cells to differentiate by exposing them to specific transcription factors and formed pluripotent stem cells, however it is difficult and not completely ready to be used on a scale large enough to be of much use.
    Spinal cord injuries and the repair of neurons is just about to begin (relative term “about” the FDA moves very slowly) phase 1 clinical trials. This has worked very well in animal models and is truly something that is going to benefit people in short order.
    Other researchers have produced various heart cells from ESC’s that have been beneficial in myocardial infarction in rats. The results/benefits have been small and transient, but it is a start and improvement is on the horizon (of course you might say this is a failure because it has only shown a little benefit and not what was hoped for, however, the research is ongoing and should improve, remember if at first you don’t succeed…).
    Retinal cells have been produced from ESC that have allowed blind rats to see light. They have not yet been able to restore sight, as in structures, yet but from this they have gone on to develop another type of retinal cells that may well restore structure sight (again, if at first).
    Cancer drugs. Scientist have been able (I say able, but it is speculation because it is not published yet and closely guarded) to develop cancer cells. Now you might ask why would they want to develop cancer cells. We it is much easier and particle to test new cancer drugs and therapies on cells rather than animals or humans. These drug researchers are only looking at the cellular mechanism by which these drugs act. Finding a drug that works on cells that are not normally treated by current methods (quiescent cells which are believed to cause cancer recurrence and metastases) is the hard part, finding a delivery method for these drugs is far easier. This type of research is not limited to cancer treatments and spans a wide range of pharmaceutical therapies.
    Genetic disorders, again cells can be created that have specific genetic disorders, Huntington’s disease is one that I am aware of that is being researched using ESC (I will see what I can find for reference on that one) Others include heart disease and some leukemia’s.
    Other things being researched include sterility, infertility and regenerative science.

    References

    Vugler A, Carr AJ, Lawrence J, et. al. Elucidating the Phenomenon of HESC-derived RPE: Anatomy of Cell Genesis, Expansion and Retinal Transplantation. Exp Neurol, 2008;214:347-361

    Lund RD, Wang S, Klimanskaya E, et, al. Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Cells Rescue Visual Function in Dystropic Rats. Cloning Stem Cells, 2006,8:189-199

    Stevens KR, Pabon L, Muskheli V, et, al. Scaffold Free Human Cardiac Tissue Patch Created from Embryonic Stem Cells. Tissue Eng. 2008;15

    Van Laake LW, Passier R, Monshouwer-Kloots J, et, al. Human Embryonic Stem Cell Derived Cardomycotes Survive and Mature in the Mouse Heart and Transiently Improve Function After Myocardial Infarction. Stem Cell Res. 2007;1:9-24

    Kehat I, Kenyagin-Karsenti D, Snir M, et, al. Human Embryonic Stem Cells can Differentiate into Myocytes with Structural and Functional Properties of Cardiomyocytes. J Clin Invest. 2001;108:407-414

    Kroon E, Martinson LA, Kadoya K, et, al. Pancreatic Endoderm Derived form Human Embryonic Stem Cells Generates Glucose-Responsive Insulin-Secreting Cells in vivo. Nat. Biltechnol. 2008;26:443-452

    Keirstead HS, Nistor G, Bernal G, et, al. Human Embryonic Stem Cell-Derived Oligodendrocyte Progenitor Cell Transplants Remyelinate and Restore Locomotion After Spinal Cord Injury. J. Neurosci. 2005;25:4694-4705

    Guan K, Rohwedel J, Wobus AM. Embryonic Stem Cell Differentiation Models; Cardiogenesis, myogenesis, Neurogenesis, Epithelial and Vascular Smooth Muscle Cell Differentiation in vitro. Cytotechnology. 1999;30:211-226

    Zhou Q, Brown J, Kanarek A, et, al. In vivo Reprogramming of Adult Pancreatic Exocrine Cells to Beta-Cells. Nature. 2008;455:627-632

    Study of the Safety and Preliminary Effectiveness of Human Central Nervous System (CNS) Stem Cells (HuCNS-SC) in Patients With Infantile of Late Infantile Neuronal Ceriod Lipofuscinosis (NCL)
    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00337636


    That should be enough to bore you for a while. If you want or need more let me know. I have others but that is all I feel like typing right now.
    Next we could address your fears in regard to cloning if you like. It is not what I think you think it is.

    BTW- probably fishing tomorrow and then I start making babies on Saturday and will be busy for the next week or so, but I will try to keep up
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  5. #25
    Senior Member Scott Greenwood's Avatar
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    I for one am also glad for the decision on stem cell research. I come from a family of strong christian baptist and believe most viewpoints from the left are just that "from the left." I also am a thirty year survivor of diabetes and could care less where they get the needed information from but don't close the doors on something that might benefit the cause. When you have "winked at the devil" enough times you will start to realize that there are more important things out in this world than your personal beliefs. This is a tough subject for me and my family but I am young and don't want to waste the rest of my life wondering.

    I don't enjoy people bad mouthing the subject when they have never sat in that persons shoes.
    Never take things for granted.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Keith Farmer's Avatar
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    That should be enough to bore you for a while. If you want or need more let me know. I have others but that is all I feel like typing right now.
    Next we could address your fears in regard to cloning if you like. It is not what I think you think it is.
    Thanks Corey,

    That is the info I was searching for in my first post. It is never boring learning new things...that is the foundation for growth. Sometimes we agree with the data, sometimes we don't. All-in-all, imo, it is progress none the less if we learn something. When going through IVF (and I was surgically involved...ouch still) I got into the nuts and bolts (no pun there but it does work huh?) with the doc...very fascinating data to say the least.

    I do not have fears about the cloning stuff...just reservations about the person who is out front...Obama. I do have concerns for what his motivations are with anything he does.

    Go play with your cells...I am headed to a field trial.

    KF
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth (Gen 1:1 NKJV)... 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. (John 1:1-4NKJV)

    No evolution, no monkey ancestors, no big bang!

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