The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34

Thread: Difference in Young Dog Trainers

  1. #1
    Senior Member Nate_C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    507

    Default Difference in Young Dog Trainers

    I have seen a few threads on the best young dog trainers. Always names like Jim Van Engan, Bruce Curtis, Al Arthur...ect.. come up. I will call them for the sake of this question first tier trainers for basics. Then there are a number of 2nd tier trainers mostly in the hunt test world. Good guys but usually a little less experienced and smaller operations/grounds...ect... Question:

    1. Is there a really difference in quality for basics. Dog tier 1's force fetch a lot better then a good tier 2, or is the difference more in the field work.

    2. Is there a difference in the basic field work and yard work for the field trial prospect and the hunt test prospect. for instance if you put you dog with say Jim Van Engan the field work will be focused more on laying the foundation for field trials. If you have a MH/HRCH track dog will this add to the dog or is it better to work with the 2nd tier pro that will do field work more focused on those tracks. for instance, more walking out and shooting birds close to simulate HRCH stuff.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    1,682

    Default

    This probably isn't what you're looking for, but in my opinion, it depends on the individual trainer and the individual dog. Grouping trainers can be very misleading. There are some HT pros out there that put basics on a dog very similarly to some of those A-list FT pros. There are also pros in both venues that I wouldn't allow near one of my dogs.
    There is a HT pro that frequents this board who has trained with some of those A-list pros and by all accounts does a great job of basics. She's trained a grunch of MH dogs and has had a couple move on to get their FC or AFC titles.
    If I were looking for a young dog pro, I would do as much research as possible and watch as many dogs as possible that were trained by that pro. I would spend some time watching them train and watch them handle dogs in HT or FT. I would talk to clients as well as other pros. That said, if I had aspirations to run field trials, I would look to get my dog on the truck of a young dog pro who trains for field trials.
    That wasn't a simple answer, but I'm not sure that there is a simple (and truthful) answer to that question.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

  3. #3
    Senior Member BonMallari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    LV/CenTex/Idaho
    Posts
    12,852

    Default

    I can only comment on someone I know but we have used a young pro named Chris LaCross, very nice guy very competent trainer/handler,and someone my brother trusts and gets along with...

    on the FT circuit there is a certain pecking order, based on titles won (read Mike Lardy) current superstars on their truck (Rorem) and reputation (Farmer),is there a difference ? there is if you base your answer on results, but in any circuit some pros work better with a certain type of dog, some work better with a certain type of owner, and some have access to better training grounds than others and have the infrastructure in place to give your dog the optimum shot at success...

    I have always wondered, would you rather be dog # 15 on hot pro trainer du jour's truck or lone dog # 1 on young up and coming pro trainer du jour stable
    All my Exes live in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by lanse brown View Post
    A few things that I learned still ring true. "Lanse when you get a gift, say thank you and walk away. When you get a screwing walk away. You are going to get a lot more screwings than gifts"

  4. #4
    Senior Member Raymond Little's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Lake Charles/Grand Chenier La
    Posts
    1,961

    Default

    lone dog # 1 on young up and coming pro trainer du jour stable

    Gets my vote any day of the week, I know he is going to get the work
    and not be shoved off to the side.

    Good Post
    "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is watching"....J.C. Watts

  5. #5
    Senior Member JusticeDog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Illinois/Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,240

    Default

    I've learned a couple of things the hard way, in a short period of time ie: the last 6-7 years of being in retrievers. Considering the money I've wasted on certain pros, and the dogs that have almost been wasted or washed due to poor training, I think this topic is one I can speak to.

    Whether it be an HRC dog or a FT dog, your basics should be very similar. Both dogs need to have good obedience and good yard work. Both dogs need to be able to learn to take a cast, go-stop-come etc. The difference is in the length of the marks, and the precision on blinds, short retireds are primary in HRC dogs.

    I have found a lot of "pros" cut corners on basics. And, it bites you in the $ss at a HT.

    I have seen Jim VanEngen train a hunting dog. He has one guy who dedicates himself to exposing the dog to hunting scenarios, doves, etc. AFTER the basics are laid. That same dog is awesome hunting or at a HT because of properly laid basics and obedience. And they get all the attention in the world.

    I just won't do the "up and comers" any more. Let them practice on someone elses dog. I won't put up with trainers who teach my dogs to be afraid in the middle of big water, or teach them to pop in the middle of big water. I won't put up with pros who send them back to me with "issues" that they never had before. And don't try to tell me it's the dog because a). I'm not that stupid and b). you sent two home with the same issues who had VERY different personalities.
    And if anyone wants to see why, come and train with me, and I'll show you some of the reasons why.... Is there a difference? You better believe it.

    I am biased, but I have very expensive reasons why I'm biased.
    Susan

    FC Tribute to Justice, JH "Honor"
    FC AFC Contempt of Court "Ruckus"
    Medal Of Honor, QAA "Valor"
    HRCH Kirby's High Sierra, SH, QAA "Kirby"
    HRCH Niki Snowbird, SH, QAA "Niki"
    Southland Order In the Court, QAA "Gavel" July 17, 2002- March 24, 2013
    Southland Rusty Nail - derby points, qual placements "Rusty"
    www.justiceretrievers.com

  6. #6
    Senior Member DoubleHaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    N. Cackalacky
    Posts
    2,650

    Default

    This is something that interests me, primarily because I don't really understand the whole thing. I understand that the right young dog pro is necessary to get your dog on the right big time pro truck (necessary but not sufficient, perhaps). So, it is like getting your kid into the right pre-school--if you don't, kiss Princeton goodbye.

    But how does the deal actually work? Do the young dog pros take them very young--like weeks old? Do these pros work with the dogs all themselves, or like Joe Schmo Pro, do they have assistant young dog trainers to do the grundoon work?

    Just curious. It might be good to know these things one day when my ship comes in.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Golden, Colorado
    Posts
    5,002

    Default

    First, I want a dog that is well conditioned to pressure. That is a task that requires a great deal of experience. For that reason, if I were looking to have my dogs put through the basics, I would be looking for someone who has been doing the basics a long time and whose work product I could view in training and in the field. I do not think just anybody can do the job, and I have seen plenty of dogs whose basics were substandard. Moreover, when the basics are poorly done, it is not always possible to redo them. It is a job best done right the first time. I would not subsidize someone’s on the job training. Like Susan, I want someone who has been around the block a few times.

    Second, there are trainers with 20 dogs who do a good job of basics and some with 2 that cannot. Sometimes, it is related to experience (see discussion above). Sometimes, it is related to pride in craftsmanship. Some people do a good job no matter what. Some people never do a good job. Other people only do a good job for the right person. I would look for the person who had great pride in their work product - no matter who their client was. Once I found that person, I wouldn’t care how many - or few - dogs that he or she had.

    Third, if I was looking for a pro to run my dog, I would rather have the 20th dog on the right truck, than the 1st dog on the wrong truck. The FT game involves a lot of learning which can only occur on the job. Again, I am not into subsidizing someone else’s education. It may make you feel better to be the big fish in a small pond, but your dog may be better off if you are only one of a number of small fish in a big pond.
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

    Home of:
    FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (2003 NARC Finalist)
    FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power
    FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator
    FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer (2007 NARC Finalist)
    AFC Freeridin Maserati (Double Header Winner)

    www.freeridinretrievers.com

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Golden, Colorado
    Posts
    5,002

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleHaul View Post
    So, it is like getting your kid into the right pre-school--if you don't, kiss Princeton goodbye.
    Having three dogs on a pro's truck may help you get a fourth on that truck when it is crowded ... kind of like a "legacy" trust will help your kid go to Princeton

    But, by and large, the top pros are going to have plenty of dogs. What they are looking for is good dogs. If you have a young hot shot that is tearing up the derby circuit or is making heads turn in the AA stakes, you are not going to have a problem finding a home for your dog.

    Every basketball team wants Lebron James, when he enters free agency.
    And if your dog is the next Auggie, you are not going to have to worry about finding him a home.
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

    Home of:
    FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie (2003 NARC Finalist)
    FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker Power
    FC/AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator
    FC/AFC Freeridin Vampire Slayer (2007 NARC Finalist)
    AFC Freeridin Maserati (Double Header Winner)

    www.freeridinretrievers.com

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Aubrey TX
    Posts
    5,880

    Default

    Everything that Ted said is how I felt when picking out pro's for my FC.

    Get the best trainer that will put your dog in the best position to succeed in it's career regardless of the venue.

    A properly done foundation done by a well known, reputible camp will pay huge dividends in the long run.

    Angie

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Pa.
    Posts
    5,317

    Default

    Tier schmere-- any of them worth their salt can do a "round peg". I want to see a trainer that can and will do the "square pegs" without ruining them or worse ................

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

Similar Threads

  1. Young Dog Trainers for Field Trials
    By TNDUCKHUNTER in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: 04-17-2009, 04:32 PM
  2. Young dog......
    By KwickLabs in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-27-2008, 12:51 AM
  3. Young dog questions welcome.
    By J. Torrey in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-19-2007, 11:56 AM
  4. Young dog problems
    By Bustin' in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-17-2007, 08:18 AM
  5. Eastern young dog trainers
    By GCA in forum RTF - Retriever Training Forum
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 03-27-2007, 08:35 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •