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Thread: An article worth reading

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    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Matt McKenzie

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    I love people who argue with themselves. If I could put any words I wanted into the mouths of those I opposed, and then use my brilliant rhetoric to lay siege on those same straw men, I might be able to get a job as a columnist on the Nation Review. It was better with William F. Buckley.

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    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Jeff,
    I expected better from you. Usually your response are intelligent, reasoned and discuss the issues.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hookset View Post
    Jeff,
    I expected better from you. Usually your response are intelligent, reasoned and discuss the issues.
    My response to UB left me exhausted and the article you posted didn't include any actual facts or quotes. What can I say. Even a comedian needs material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I love people who argue with themselves. If I could put any words I wanted into the mouths of those I opposed, and then use my brilliant rhetoric to lay siege on those same straw men, I might be able to get a job as a columnist on the Nation Review. It was better with William F. Buckley.
    - Apparently you are running out of energy in your quest to be POTUS Place's apologist & defender of the Messiah. What I read was decidedly straight talk that may be somewhat offensive to those in the line of fire. But if all else fails, denigrate the messenger.

    As for NR's quality sliding I must be behind the curve as I have not noticed that. But then again, I must realize that from your liberal elitist view, no one on this particular forum is fit to dispute your views.

    BTW - just got my notice of dividend from CS - one of those Swiss companies in the Europe that you love to tell us does perform better than the US. 35% withholding on dividends - would you explain to me why it is better that the government - any of them - can redistribute the take from my toil better than I can.

    You have a nice day - as Matt said, the quality of your postings is fast going down hill. Is that perhaps because you are being required to present original thought? Which would be a 1st for most lefty's on this part of the forum.
    Last edited by Marvin S; 04-03-2009 at 12:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    - Apparently you are running out of energy in your quest to be POTUS Place's apologist & defender of the Messiah. What I read was decidedly straight talk that may be somewhat offensive to those in the line of fire. But if all else fails, denigrate the messenger.
    Hardly I think. Nobody on this board presents a more reasoned and factually based argument than Yardley. Look back on some of his post's and I think you will find He does not always defend the current President's policies.







    You have a nice day - as Matt said, the quality of your postings is fast going down hill. Is that perhaps because you are being required to present original thought? Which would be a 1st for most lefty's on this part of the forum.
    I don't think so. Show me a post that is representative of what your saying.
    I read the article posted and what Yardley said is correct. The author used the term "some" people to help bolster his argument. Well tell me who they are then. He continued with what he considers important principles and values on how we should conduct government. Again though it failed to show specific instances, and more importantly didn't offer any solutions. This was an opinion piece that's all. It wasn't a reasoned argument showing facts and figures and why we should adopt his viewpoint. Propaganda is a lot like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    My response to UB left me exhausted and the article you posted didn't include any actual facts or quotes. What can I say. Even a comedian needs material.
    BS. There are facts in that article. Here is an example:

    If you had little idea of how businesses are created, how they are run, and why they sometimes go broke, and if you thought that the truly talented and sophisticated never go into business but instead gravitate to the Ivy League to be trained as lawyers, professors, writers, and organizers, then you would assume that our present problems are largely the fault of the former, and can best be addressed by putting as many of the latter in your government as possible.
    We will be paying for this mistake of a president for years. I am more qualified than this president to get things on track for this country, and he is doing the exact opposite of what needs to be done. His actions will be hindering innovations that will get us back on track.

    Obama has shown no understanding of economic cycles or the understanding of businesses.

    Why are we in our current situation? Mis-management and lack of new innovations. Companies require innovations to grow, and managers are affraid to give up control to their engineers and leaders to allow innovations. Instead they sold the long term strength for short term greed and control. Another reason management if fearful of allowing innovation, is that is requires hard work into the unknown, and the unknown means less control.

    “You can't GROW long-term if you can't eat short term. 'Anybody can MANAGE short. Anybody can manage long. Balancing those two things is what management is.” Jack Welch

    We also go through cycles in several industries that sometimes align all at once for a big recession. In 1939, Joseph Schumpeter, the Austrian-born economist who moved to America, published a two-volume work, "Business Cycles: A Theoretical, Historical and Statistical Analysis of the Capitalist Process.“ Schumpeter’s solution to the cycles is the creative destruction of the past through innovations. Be aware of cycles, not just the pattern but what is driving the pattern. Creative Destruction is a long term phenomenon, don’t get caught up the flavor of the month. Innovation is the source of true sustainability.

    What companies and the government should be doing and encouraging to break us out of this cycle:

    *Having CEO’s that were heavily involved in fostering innovation
    *Defining innovation as critical to long-term success
    *Attaching great importance to the concept of managing change
    *Having the words innovation and creativity in their mission statements
    *Demonstrating an openness to outside ideas
    *Having formal programs for idea generation and problem solving
    *Placing strong emphasis on cross-function communications
    *Implementing programs to encourage employees to talk to customers
    *Increasing levels of investment in R&D and a strong focus on product and process development

    It is up to engineers and innovators to bring our economy back to health through creative destruction of the past.

    Having an attorney in office is not going to solve our problems unless he learns to give up control. He is doing the exact opposite of what needs to be done in order to turn this economy around by rewarding failure, and in turn punishing successful businesses along with their new innovations.
    Terry Britton, P.E.

    Engineers believe that if it isn't broken, it doesn't have enough features yet.

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Your quote is a perfect example of what I mean by saying the article lacks any factual basis. As you quote, it says:

    "If you had little idea of how businesses are created, how they are run, and why they sometimes go broke, and if you thought that the truly talented and sophisticated never go into business but instead gravitate to the Ivy League to be trained as lawyers, professors, writers, and organizers, then you would assume that our present problems are largely the fault of the former, and can best be addressed by putting as many of the latter in your government as possible."

    It doesn't actually suggest anyone who suffers from this illusion -- it's a pure hypothetical -- and therefore if anyone tries to argue that they don't have this problem the response would be "I didn't say you did." or, even better, "I didn't say you did but why are you so defensive?" However, this "straw man" hypothetical is used to condemn (I'm still not sure what or whom) by association with an idea that seems stuck only in the mind of the author.

    In fact, my own experience has been that most people who are highly successful at an executive level in government regularly achieve similar success in private businesses but that the reverse is much less common. It has also been my personal experience that few people who achieve at high levels make the mistake of underestimating the intelligence, hard work, or creativity required to be effective in other arenas.

    The area where I tend to find a great divide -- once again in my personal experience -- is between those working in arenas where individual success is based primarily on personal achievement (doctors, trial attorneys, professors, authors, very small businesses, etc.) versus those whose success is based primarily on group achievement where their effectiveness depends largely on leadership and organizational skills.

    My first job following graduate school was in the NYC Office of Management & Budget as a policy analyst. Almost every single person that I worked with in the office where I was assigned went on to achieve substantial success in the private sector: Partner at Lazard Freres, Partner in Merrill Lynch's investment banking arm, VP Strategic Development at Citicorp, Partner at Ernst & Young, Partner at McKinsey, SVP at Chemical Bank, etc. Most of these people had graduate degrees from Ivy League (or equivalent) schools and most spent about ten years working in government before going to the private sector. Interestingly, other than receiving much higher incomes in the private sector, the other common observation was that they never again needed to work as hard as they had at the Budget Office where our average work week was close to 80 hours.

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    The quote points to Obama's actions in his backwards thinking of turning the economy around. His actions are doing more to lengthen the recession than to let the failing businesses fail, and expedite the profitable businesses that will emerge from the ashes as such that happened with Worldcom.

    Rather than forcing us as tax payers to pay for the failures, those that took the risk in investing in or working for those businesses by buying loans and purchasing stock should be the ones assuming all of the risks.

    Forget about emotional attachements to either party, and look at there actions. I can forsee a new strong 3rd party in the middle arising up in 2012 from the ashes of both the democrat facist party and the liberal republican party in creative destruction of the past for a stronger part that will honor the constitution and the people. Giving free handouts to failures does not create any honor, and those handouts are not free as our kids may be paying for them with taxes which will hinder their chances at a decent education.

    Obama's actions are very Chavez like so far.
    Terry Britton, P.E.

    Engineers believe that if it isn't broken, it doesn't have enough features yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Britton View Post
    *Having CEO’s that were heavily involved in fostering innovation
    *Defining innovation as critical to long-term success
    *Attaching great importance to the concept of managing change
    *Having the words innovation and creativity in their mission statements
    *Demonstrating an openness to outside ideas
    *Having formal programs for idea generation and problem solving
    *Placing strong emphasis on cross-function communications
    *Implementing programs to encourage employees to talk to customers
    *Increasing levels of investment in R&D and a strong focus on product and process developmen
    Good luck with that, innovative employees are considered troublemakers.

    It is up to engineers and innovators to bring our economy back to health through creative destruction of the past.
    We agree here - little happens without constructive engineering input.

    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Your quote is a perfect example of what I mean by saying the article lacks any factual basis. As you quote, it says:

    "If you had little idea of how businesses are created, how they are run, and why they sometimes go broke, and if you thought that the truly talented and sophisticated never go into business but instead gravitate to the Ivy League to be trained as lawyers, professors, writers, and organizers, then you would assume that our present problems are largely the fault of the former, and can best be addressed by putting as many of the latter in your government as possible."
    Strikes me as very straightforward.



    In fact, my own experience has been that most people who are highly successful at an executive level in government regularly achieve similar success in private businesses but that the reverse is much less common. It has also been my personal experience that few people who achieve at high levels make the mistake of underestimating the intelligence, hard work, or creativity required to be effective in other arenas.
    My experience has been they are less than stellar because of their mind set. What do you consider Executive level?

    The area where I tend to find a great divide -- once again in my personal experience -- is between those working in arenas where individual success is based primarily on personal achievement (doctors, trial attorneys, professors, authors, very small businesses, etc.) versus those whose success is based primarily on group achievement where their effectiveness depends largely on leadership and organizational skills.
    We have some agreement here. But I would say it's dictated by an individuals ability to work within an larger organizational culture. Talent is like toast, even in larger organizations, it will always pop up.



    My first job following graduate school was in the NYC Office of Management & Budget as a policy analyst. Almost every single person that I worked with in the office where I was assigned went on to achieve substantial success in the private sector: Partner at Lazard Freres, Partner in Merrill Lynch's investment banking arm, VP Strategic Development at Citicorp, Partner at Ernst & Young, Partner at McKinsey, SVP at Chemical Bank, etc. Most of these people had graduate degrees from Ivy League (or equivalent) schools and most spent about ten years working in government before going to the private sector. Interestingly, other than receiving much higher incomes in the private sector, the other common observation was that they never again needed to work as hard as they had at the Budget Office where our average work week was close to 80 hours.
    This is where your New Yorker instincts take over - what policy did you ever institute that provided clarity in what most would consider a dysfunctional city?

    As for being a partner - how much was due to ability & how much was due to connections? As one of my miners so eloquently presented In some what cruder terms, "Sex in the right family will beat all the qualifications any one can have."

    My experience, which I'm sure rivals yours but would be oriented to the real world, has been that those who come from these elite programs believe that achieving the diploma gives them an advantage over an equally qualified individual with lesser educational credentials. & it shows in organizations that have this culture. How could we fail? All our people are from Duke, Stanford & the Ivy league. But they failed to have a catalyst that created a productive mindset.
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    Marvin S

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    Someday your life will flash before your eyes. It's your responsibility to make sure it's worth watching!

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