1st they came for the banks......

[badbullgator]

Actually, a bigger threat to the long term financial well being in the US is the large number of public employees retiring at a young age, taking another position & getting into an additional retirement system. Public employees receive entirely too much from the system based on the value they add to it.

Marvin
Our county manager and school board director, among others in our county gov, are double dipping. I have to go look for the details but both had to "retire" for one month so they could collect a BIG monthly retirement package while they collect HUGE salaries when they unretired after the month. I know one of the two is getting something like 400K annually in addition to his salary.
BTW- both do a great job, but that is beside the point

[Marvin S]

- & thanks for your candid comments -

Marv, I don't know about the State of Washington but the only ones that retire early in my experience is police and fire. I have worked in both the private and public sectors. The wages of public employees are generally much lower than in the private sector. I was a union negotiator for the public sector and I know this to be true.

Everyone in this State has 30 & out if they desire - they can then do the same position, only not full time, as Corey describes. The retirement model has not been properly negotiated in decades.

But your reply is what I would expect of a person negotiating for the public sector, it's never meant to be in the center - always skewed. As they have a very weak opponent.

Take an AS400 programmer for instance. The employees I represented were making in the mid 50's. My wife was doing comparable work for a private firm making in the high 80's. The lawyers I represented with years of experience were making substantially less than the rookies sitting at the opposite desk across the courtroom. Our road workers were earning $4 an hour less than their local counter parts in the private sector. It would have been far less if we had not successfully bargained for some good contracts --good enough to slow the hemorrhage of experienced employees.

Our retirement plan was not subject to negotiation, but it was identical to those my wife and I had in the private sector.

Please, the tired argument of doing better somewhere else is outdated, If they want more money go there. & the one about "road WORKERS" actually makes me smile. We all see the difference daily in our commutes in the summer. Leaning on a shovel or sitting in the truck does not qualify one as a "worker", just a well paid employee.

At our last family reunion (our family is full of educators) the subject of compensation was presented. After listening to one of my cousins give the AEA/NEA model I interjected that I believed teachers in most geographical areas were more than adequately compensated for what they brought to the table & the product they produced. Needless to say, a brisk discussion ensued & my cousin will probably never acknowledge that I am anything more than vermin. No one in the public sector likes to deal in fact.

I really resent your characterizing public employment as not real work. You have never had a butcher knife thrown by a mental patient sail past your ear at four inches.

I doubt if you had to rescue a panicked blind senior citizen at two o'clock in the morning after her drug crazed son threw her down a stairway. You never had the same drug crazed individual stalk you, your wife and kids for weeks afterward.

You never had to walk in to a house so filled with rotten filth that firemen with breathing apparatus were called in to video the evidence.

You may skip the theatrical part of the presentation, but I'll ask a few questions.

How did someone like that come into possession of a tool like that? Did someone fail to take the precautions they should have taken?

As for the drug thing, if law enforcement was doing the great job we are paying dearly for them to do, why can't they solve the drug problem? Or, on the other hand, do they want to solve it?

I am also a trained cartographer. Our county cartographers and highway engineers were comparable and often superior to what I observed in the private sector.

You may be really good at what you do, repetition does that, but what is the demand in the private sector for that type of endeavor. BTW, I know what a cartographer is, I collect maps of all kinds.

Public employees are not welfare recipients. Many of them are highly trained in their fields. There are no apologies needed or forthcoming for the work of the folks I represented. I am proud to have represented them.

That's nice! Then why do we always have the whining about what they feel they are required to do?

But I'll close with this, the headlines are daily full of 10's of thousands being laidoff in the real world, where are the corresponding layoffs in the public sector?

[zeus3925]

Everyone in this State has 30 & out if they desire - they can then do the same position, only not full time, as Corey describes. The retirement model has not been properly negotiated in decades.

Can't do it here! I agree it is not fair.

But your reply is what I would expect of a person negotiating for the public sector, it's never meant to be in the center - always skewed. As they have a very weak opponent.

Marv, if I am elected to a union position it is my job to get the best contract I can for my membership or they will elect someone that will. I never considered our negotiating opponent as anything but tough and competent. They always brought in hired guns to do the negotiations.

Please, the tired argument of doing better somewhere else is outdated, If they want more money go there. & the one about "road WORKERS" actually makes me smile. We all see the difference daily in our commutes in the summer. Leaning on a shovel or sitting in the truck does not qualify one as a "worker", just a well paid employee.

Yeah, Marv. You were here in Minnesota and saw them all playing soccer on the job, eh?

At our last family reunion (our family is full of educators) the subject of compensation was presented. After listening to one of my cousins give the AEA/NEA model I interjected that I believed teachers in most geographical areas were more than adequately compensated for what they brought to the table & the product they produced. Needless to say, a brisk discussion ensued & my cousin will probably never acknowledge that I am anything more than vermin. No one in the public sector likes to deal in fact.

No wonder your relatives would disown you the moment your bank account is dry. You are long on opinion and short of actual knowledge. Marv, you are becoming a poster child for geezerdom. BTW, Duluth, MN schools tried private sector management. It was a total disaster. Same for counties that contracted with Lockheed for social services.

As for the drug thing, if law enforcement was doing the great job we are paying dearly for them to do, why can't they solve the drug problem? Or, on the other hand, do they want to solve it?

Suggestion Marv: Call your local police chief and ask him directly. Then call a chemical dependency clinic and ask them the same question.

You may be really good at what you do, repetition does that, but what is the demand in the private sector for that type of endeavor. BTW, I know what a cartographer is, I collect maps of all kinds.

Marv, I was damn good at what I did. Being a civil engineer, I thought you'd know what a cartographer is. But you won't be able to collect my maps as they are digital and are in military flight systems.

But I'll close with this, the headlines are daily full of 10's of thousands being laidoff in the real world, where are the corresponding layoffs in the public sector?

Marv, public employees are being laid off nationwide. Check with your state and local govs and get the numbers.

[Marvin S]

Can't do it here! I agree it is not fair.

Step 1

Marv, if I am elected to a union position it is my job to get the best contract I can for my membership or they will elect someone that will. I never considered our negotiating opponent as anything but tough and competent. They always brought in hired guns to do the negotiations.

Hired guns do as they are told to do, if they want to continue. They are a convenient way to lend credibility to someones agenda without being in the position of taking blame. When at Boeing I was asked to participate on our Engineering Associations negotiation team. I polled my fellow engineers & asked if they would be willing to use the ultimate weapon, they said NO so I declined.

Yeah, Marv. You were here in Minnesota and saw them all playing soccer on the job, eh?

My wife comes from a long line of public employees so am quite familiar with what they do & their thought process. She has been converted.

But my wife's BIL was chastised for playing cards on paid time as they were not filling their 10 hour day with production, as measured by the government.

No wonder your relatives would disown you the moment your bank account is dry. You are long on opinion and short of actual knowledge. Marv, you are becoming a poster child for geezerdom.

The only people that counted outside my immediate familym my maternal Grandparents & a maternal Aunt are long since passed to a better place & their bones have been picked clean by the vultures on that side of the family. No one outside my immediate family has any concern for our welfare & they wish us a long & productive life.

BTW, Duluth, MN schools tried private sector management. It was a total disaster. Same for counties that contracted with Lockheed for social services.

Sure sounds good, but why don't they have charter schools, school choice & vouchers?

As for social services, it's best done locally. What makes you think the people hired were not the same ones who caused the experiment & wanted it to fail. When I grew up, all names of people on relief were published in the local paper, created an incentive to get off & not cheat.

Suggestion Marv: Call your local police chief and ask him directly. Then call a chemical dependency clinic and ask them the same question.

Why would you ask the beneficiaries of a failed system to participate in a discussion on how to fix same?

Marv, I was damn good at what I did. Being a civil engineer, I thought you'd know what a cartographer is. But you won't be able to collect my maps as they are digital and are in military flight systems.

Actually, I'm a Mining Engineer, like a Civil but greater emphasis on metals. I will repeat my previous statement which you must have missed "I am sure you are good at what you do"

Marv, public employees are being laid off nationwide. Check with your state and local govs and get the numbers.

Where's the press? I would only have your word for it. State & local governments present a budget & then create fanfare when they have to cut it. What they fail to tell you is - Potential income will be up 5% but that not enough, In order to provide the services we think you should have we need a 10% increase over the budget that was already increased 5% to cover this new income. So they are finally forced to cut 1/2 of the 10% increase but raise fees to cover the costs - fees are not taxes, though they come from the same pocket.

The R's congratulate themselves on holding the line, the D's tell you how fiscally responsible they are with their new Liberal Progressive budgeting & the people who really work get hosed.

In WA, the disparity between public sector wages & the private sector is about 29/17 or 71% more per person for those in the public sector. There is a highly paid MSFT, B & medical research work force here. Do you find that disparity acceptable? & it's the little guy who is paying the tab for all those cushy positions. What's it like in MN? or do you know?

[zeus3925]

:
But my wife's BIL was chastised for playing cards on paid time as they were not filling their 10 hour day with production, as measured by the government.

I that is happening on the job then the burden rests on supervision. I am a taxpayer and I didn't support that stuff either as a union officer.

:Sure sounds good, but why don't they have charter schools, school choice & vouchers?

We have charter schools and school choice but not vouchers. The Catholics and Lutherans would love to have vouchers but the pols are not willing to go there. The charter schools here are under performing the public schools. Minnesota public schools regularly score significantly above the national average

:

As for social services, it's best done locally. What makes you think the people hired were not the same ones who caused the experiment & wanted it to fail. When I grew up, all names of people on relief were published in the local paper, created an incentive to get off & not cheat.

Minnesota and Indiana are the last two states where the welfare system is local. I believe in Indiana social services may be separate with the social services under the state. All the rest are state controlled (with the requisite federal meddling for federal cash).

:
Why would you ask the beneficiaries of a failed system to participate in a discussion on how to fix same?

Maybe I can give you a starting point on the drug issue. Alcoholism and drug addiction are basically the same animal. Why can't we cure alcoholics faster than they are created? Maybe Corey (BadbullGator) can give you the heads up on that.

:Actually, I'm a Mining Engineer, like a Civil but greater emphasis on metals. I will repeat my previous statement which you must have missed "I am sure you are good at what you do"

Ahh, one of those phase equilibria dudes! Thanks for the compliment. I did go back to school to study geology at age 40. The market for geologists crashed in the mid 80's but I did find a firm willing to hire me as a map maker. I did cartography in the private sector until the company lost its government contract as it was owned by a German national and Ronald Reagan disapproved.

:Where's the press? I would only have your word for it. State & local governments present a budget & then create fanfare when they have to cut it. What they fail to tell you is - Potential income will be up 5% but that not enough, In order to provide the services we think you should have we need a 10% increase over the budget that was already increased 5% to cover this new income. So they are finally forced to cut 1/2 of the 10% increase but raise fees to cover the costs - fees are not taxes, though they come from the same pocket.

The newspaper industry is sucking canal bottom nationwide. Coverage of complex issues can't be handled in a 5 minute newscast. So we become mushrooms--kept in the dark and fed skitah.

In WA, the disparity between public sector wages & the private sector is about 29/17 or 71% more per person for those in the public sector. There is a highly paid MSFT, B & medical research work force here. Do you find that disparity acceptable? & it's the little guy who is paying the tab for all those cushy positions. What's it like in MN? or do you know?

Minnesota is the land of small to medium sized businesses. If you want better pay go private. We have an active medical device industry as well as giants like 3M, Target and Cargill. We don't get punched out like Michigan does when the economy goes south. I did see the numbers when I was boning up for negotiations. Generally lower skilled positions were roughly equal. Professional level pay was significantly higher in the private sector. In fact, some of our master degreed people qualified for subsidy if t.
hey were to purchase a house in the local area.

In my case I am driven by other things beside money. My religious and family background is oriented toward public service. I don't fly a desk well. Public service gave me a crack at all the action I could crave and more.

Take care, Marv

[Uncle Bill]

And this surprises you how?

1. Attempt to seize control of census-Whitehouse control
2. Attempt to place salary cap on execs recieving Tarp funds-Whitehouse control
3.Attempt to stop bonuses for employees of companies recieving Tarp
money-Whitehouse control
4. Attempt to extend salary caps to businesses not recieving Tarp or Bailout money- Whitehouse control
5. Attempt to place high level of control on states recieving bailout cash Whitehouse control
6.Attempt to take over investment firms who are in trouble regardless of weather they are a financial institution or not Whitehouse control

HUGE power play for control by Obama, hell, who needs a Constitution when we have one man who is so brilliant and worthy
I just wonder who's power he will want to usurp tomorrow

Reckon you got your answer to that question today, Mike. And while I 'get it', your number 3 item is even MORE egregious...he ignored private business contracts...intimidating every member of that firm that had every right to expect those contracts to be fulfilled.

Regardless of the pomposity of the queers that are in charge of our banking regulators, (Barney is just the Queen...but he's NOT alone), that was as communistic a manuever and show of Federal intimidation beyond anything we have witnessed since Teinnamon Square.

UB

[Terry Britton]

Health Care is next my friend!!

Ain't it wonderful??

I have several friends that are young doctors that are leaving the USA because of this. One is an ER doctor in UB's neighborhood. This is not a good trend to start.

[badbullgator]

I have several friends that are young doctors that are leaving the USA because of this. One is an ER doctor in UB's neighborhood. This is not a good trend to start.

Try to find a new/young ob/gyn....

[Gerry Clinchy]

Does this make any sense? I don't agree with bailing out the banks, but if they were going to do it, the following doesn't make much sense.

From the NY Times today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/11/bu...html?th&emc=th

The banks are complaining about the possible government interference with their management (cut bonuses, change leadership). Can't say I can sympathize with that! OTOH, some other conditions seem to be counter-productive.

Douglas Leech, the founder and chief executive of Centra Bank, a small West Virginia bank that participated in the capital assistance program but returned the money after the government imposed new conditions, said he complained strongly about the Treasury Department’s decision to demand repayment of the warrants. That effectively raised the interest rate he paid on a $15 million loan to an annual rate of about 60 percent, he said.

“What they did is wrong and fundamentally un-American,” he said. “Even though the government told us to take this money to increase our lending, the extra charge meant we had less money to lend. It was the equivalent of a penalty for early withdrawal.”
Stephanie Cutter, a spokeswoman at the Treasury Department, said it did not comment about the participation of specific banks in the plan or their efforts to exit the program.