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Thread: Is it a wrong........

  1. #1
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Default Is it wrong........

    to allow a dog to divert from the intended path? In the following picture the dog is allowed to do just that. Is it wrong?

    "cheating singles"
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 04-07-2009 at 09:02 AM.
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
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  2. #2
    Senior Member GulfCoast's Avatar
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    Jim:

    It seems to me the question you are asking is "should the handler have handled quicker to keep the dog on line?"

    I am probably the least among the most compared to the knowledge on this board, but when doing decheating with mine, I try to handle just as soon as the dog deviates, so I personally would have handled quicker. I was taught to pick a series of points on the line to the bird prior to the water/cover etc and blow the whistle and handle back to the correct line as soon as there is any deviation. I know there are many different philosophies about this, and there is probably no "wrong" way to do it if the intended result happens at the end of the process, but handling at the earliest opportunity is how I was taught.

    I hope I interpreted the question correctly!

    Best Regards,
    Mark
    Wm. Mark Edwards
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  3. #3
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Depends upon where the dog is in his advancement.
    If he's just learning to be honest, you would handle earlier to show him the proper way to negotiate cheaty entries.
    If you are certain he should "know better", you would let him make his mistake before correcting.

    JMO

    JS
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  4. #4
    Kristie Wilder
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    My philosophy is that anything I allow the dog to do is condoning the behavior in the dog's mind. Only in rare cases that I really have a headstrong dog would I wait for the dog to commit the sin in order to correct (whether it's with or without pressure). It has to be a very specific case, though.

    I would rather show and teach my dog the right way. I don't want them to think they are doing the right thing, in this case staying land, only to get in trouble once they got there. To me, that's not clear to the dog. The dog, as he goes along, thinks everything is going just fine and then gets nailed for behavior he started however many seconds ago.

    Moreover, waiting for the dog to go along the bank only to ask him to get in part way down can create a hotspot on the land, especially if the handling coincides with a correction.

    TEACH the dog what you want first so they understand your expectation. Then correct the dog at THE TIME OF THE POOR DECISION later on when they know what you're asking.

    In the case of your #2, that MAY be grounds for a recall. With a younger dog, it may involve moving up to get teh correct entry. This looks like somewhat of an acute angle entry and it's hard to teach and get angle entries by handling - as far as the dog really understanding what you're asking for. I save these for dogs that understand no-here and can adjust their line accordingly -- which is still a fairly young dog, but I want to make sure they understand to adjust their line and make the proper entry.

  5. #5
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder View Post
    .....
    I would rather show and teach my dog the right way.
    That goes without saying.

    Moreover, waiting for the dog to go along the bank only to ask him to get in part way down can create a hotspot on the land, especially if the handling coincides with a correction.
    That is my rationale for allowing the dog, once he has been taught, to commit to his mistake before correcting.

    Once pressure comes into play, I am careful NOT to create that hotspot along the proper route ... the route I want the dog to take.

    The result may be the dog gets a little watery; gets in a little "fat", but I would allow that for now and bet it will take care of itself as the dog gets more comfortable with cheaters.

    JMO

    JS
    “Don’t wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.” Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American, though it may be too little too late now.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  6. #6
    Member BLeigh's Avatar
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    Jim,

    I think that you have to ask yourself why the dog is off course and then correct accordingly (ask why the dog is offline, giving into a factor, mismark, etc.). In other words, you should handle when a dog gives into a factor such as this flaring of the water especially in a situation where the dog is going to give into a factor and then get rewarded with the bird.

    That is an interesting question though…. If we don’t allow the diversion then you are not allowing the dog to make the mistake. If the dog doesn’t make a mistake then how can he learn to do the right thing? Is it better to over emphasize the dog’s error such as in this situation or handle the instant the dog begins to divert?

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bruce MacPherson's Avatar
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    The correction is made way late, see sig line below. You may have to move up but the correction is made when the dog goes off line initially whether it is within the first 20 yds or the first 5 feet.
    "The longer you let a dog go in the wrong direction the more they think they are going in the right direction" Don Remien.

  8. #8
    Senior Member 2tall's Avatar
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    I have a problem deciding in a case like this whether the correction (at the scene of the crime) should be a big "no here" or a sit whistle and handle. Is there a way to determine which would be best? I usually tend to take the path of least resistance, which in my case is the "no, here", but would the dog learn better through a handle even if I am risking a refusal?
    Carol,
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  9. #9
    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Most quotes are not accompanied with context and many are not absolutes.
    Jim Boyer www.kwicklabs.com
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Vicki Worthington's Avatar
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    If you are working on cheating singles, the important thing to keep in mind is what you are trying to teach the dog--NOT TO CHEAT. To instill the "see water, get in it" mentality, you must let the dog make the mistake--in this case try to avoid intering the water--in order to make the correction. The whole point of cheater singles is not to make the dog depend upon the handler to put him in the water, but to make the decision to get in the water on his own.

    The point at which you make the correction may be different for all dogs. It may be that the dog gets one cast before a collar correction, or immediately gets the correction for avoiding/attempting to avoid the water.
    Do Something! Lead, Follow, or Get Out of The Way

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