Which Nation are we?

[Franco]

Booty
It doesn't matter weather jefferson believed in God or not.


It must have been divine intervention because the constution is made of mostly biblical principle. Name me one thing in the constitution that is not a biblical principle. I'm not talking religion here. The Jesus he refers to is associated with organized religion. ,,,which is often counter what you will find if you practice biblical research standards of I peter 1 20 could be II Pete which means it must interpret itself There are no other choices. Organized religion has corrupted the word for cneturies,,,hell we have the bunny rabbit and a fat guy in a red suit to proove it. The religious leaders in the bible were no different,,,Most of them made God puke.
If God could puke that is,,,and if God can't does that make him not a God.

Anyway Jefferson probably saw them for the pukes that they were. But that doesn't mean thats the way it is in the bible. Its only someones doctrine,,,not Gods. If it were we wouldn't be in the trouble we are in today.

Pete

Yes, I agree with you in principle.

No doubt that most of the folks that settled this country were of Christian decent and that is a big part of our culture. We are just lucky that we had men such as Jefferson, Adams and Washington who were intelligent enough to see through much of the religious folly that had fallen on most common men. That they had the insight to realize that an organized state sponsored religion would be a dual edged sword, so to speak and that a state religion would lead to tyranny. Just look at countries like Iran.

BTW, I was raised in a very strict Christian household where both Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny were banned! When my daughter was a teen, she asked me why we didn’t belong to any particular church. I told her that I felt that it would hinder her from discovering for herself what the world and religion were about. That if it truly were going to mean anything to her that she would have to work that out in her own mind.

[Keith Farmer]

Jeff (and Booty as well since you mentioned your child),

You posted a picture on a different thread showing your family...kids and grand kids I think. Let me ask three questions (second is multi-faceted) and make a couple of statements appealing to your obvious intellectual side:

1) (this is a rhetorical question) Would you inject poison in the brain of the children you showed in your picture?

2) Did you teach your kids and grand kids evolution? or worse did you allow a public educator/indoctrinator to teach your kids evolution? If so what did you tell those wonderful children when you sat them down and discussed the constitution and Declaration of Independence with them? Who did you tell them the Creator was when you came to that section? Did you ignore that section? What/who has secured their rights if they were taught they are the product of random selection and evolution?

3) Did you teach your children that abortion and infanticide (such as our president supports and has adamently defended) is proper behavior for ethical/moral people?

There is a scripture reference that anyone that has children should be in tune with...here it is:

"It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble." Luke 17:2

The most awesome task anyone has is raising children. The bible says we are to train them in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. The training part comes with responsibilities and consequences. There will be an accounting required for how we as parents raise our children...

In classical Greek there is an understanding that an idol is not only an object of worship but also a concept of the mind. This is important since throughout scripture God repeatedly destroyed peoples and nations for idolotry. The mind set that says there is no God is idolotrous. In fact, the bible says of those who have that mind set that they are fools (Psalm 14:1) The mind set that says that the creation that was created in the likeness of the Holy Trinity is the product of evolution is idolotry.

Take some time and research this greek word: Metavnoia

[twall]

That if it truly were going to mean anything to her that she would have to work that out in her own mind.

Franco,

You are right, we each need to work out our faith with fear and trembling. If parents try to force "their" faith on their children it will not "stick." Likewise, no mentoring or guiding does not mean someone will not develop faith in Jesus Christ. I'm proof of that!

Still clinging to my God and guns,

Tom

[Pete]

I am thankful for our founding fathers . Weather they believed in God or not is uncertain and not much of a concern for me,,,but that they constructed a constitution which benefits all who want to live in liberty and freedom with justice . Where a person can be what he can attain through hard work without massive interference and terrany from a government is a pretty big Godly mindset. So to me its very unique for a country to value these attributes. And when our constitution is abandoned from its original intent and socialism flaunts its stench then I will discontinue my alliegence,,,because it will then be nothin special,,might as well move to cuba or N korea.I am pretty close to thinking this country isn't any difeerent than any other socialistic joint.

Our constitution and the people who love it and those who are willing to phisically fight for it is what makes this the best country in the world.

Pete

[YardleyLabs]

Too much to even pretend to respond to each person's statements individually. Booty, I love your post. The only thing missing is the fact that Jefferson also produced his own version of the Bible (actually only a small section) in an effort to capture what he saw as the essential human nature of Jesus of Nazareth. It's book that I love and that I gave to both of my kids.

Pete and Keith, I'm not sure when either of you last read the Constitution. You are hard pressed to find anything in it having to do with any higher moral principals of any kind -- Judeo-Christian, Hindu, or whatever. It never mentions God or a Creator, or even any of the ten commandments. What it does talk about is how the national government will be organized and how elections will be held and how the Constitution will be changed over time. It would be hard to find a more secular document. The rights we all cherish are not even included in the main body of the document, but were added as original amendments. The only one of those that evidences a religious thought is the first amendment, quoted before, that says that govenment should stay out of religion altogether.

The legal structure that governed the normal lives of early Americans was based on English Common Law, which itself was based primarily on Roman law -- you may remember, they were the ones that killed Christ -- with modifications coming from Norman law, which descended from Roman law as modified primarily under Charlemagne.

The notions of evangelical Christianity or fundamentalist Christianity would have been almost entirely unrecognizable to our founding fathers. They were the children of the the "Age of Reason." They were followers of Locke and Priestly and Descartes. They were the philosophical offspring of those who rejected dogma and the authority of any and all churches. While many were in fact religious, many were not religious at all.

Yes Keith, my kids have always been taught the science of evolution. They have also been taught about the wide range of creation myths that are part of every major religion. Evolution was never mentioned in our Constitution because the science associated with it was not published until 1859. However, long before Darwin published his epic the foundations of evolutionary science were being identified by many other scientists as well. I can assure you that Jefferson would absolutely have been an evolutionist eager to travel with Darwin.

With respect to the poisons of public schools, I think the only time any teacher in a public school mentioned evolution to my kids with any details was when my son had a "science" teacher who had written his Masters thesis in an effort to disprove evolution and promote creationism as a scientific fact. My son complained to me. I told him he should listen, consider what his teacher was saying, and then make up his own mind. I did suggest to him that the argument that God must exist because everything had to start somewhere was not a proof of God. Rather it is only a proof that all beginnings, including the Big Bang, imply that something had to exist before. If that is true for the Big Bang, why would it be less true for God?

The existence or non-existence of God is a matter of faith, not science. There is no reason to pretend otherwise. I cannot see how one man's faith should be made any stronger or weaker by the faith of another person.

Leave each person to make his or her own decisions and keep government out of the faith business. That's what our Constitution said. If God gave us free will in matters of belief, who is man to take it away?

[Keith Farmer]

Jeff,

You seem to dismiss the historical proof and where you get your information from is alarming...perhaps public education did that to you.

Here are a few facts about history for consideration:

John Adams said (my emphasis added):

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity...I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

That is precisely in-step with nearly every other framer at the time. I could give quote after quote if you want? But do I really need to?

I asked you where/how the framers derived the principles whereby the Declaration and Constitution were written...there is your answer strait from one of the framers himself...no need to add to it.

Did you read the case I posted...it is clear that the early pre-runners for the constitution were based on biblical principles.

Are you aware of the University of Houston study conducted in 1892? Here is the gist of what they did (my emphasis added):

Many have wanted to know where the Founders got their ideas for the Constitution. The University of Houston conducted a study over 10 years that examined 15,000 writings from the Founding Era. The researchers isolated 3,154 direct quotes made by the Founders and identified the source of these quotes. 34% of the quotes came directly out of the Bible.Another 60% came indirectly from the Bible from sources such as Baron Charles de Montesquieu, Sir William Blackstone, and John Locke. These were men who had used the Bible to arrive at their own conclusions. Robert S. Dunn

Have you studied Washington's farewell address?...probably not since it has been removed from public education due to its "religious" overtones...Washington, our first president is now not constitutionally acceptable??!! Here are a few quotes from that address:

“Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert?”

“of all the habits and dispositions which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars.”

I interpret that to mean that anyone who tries to subvert religion and morality are enemies of American patriotism...Washington said that!

“Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds ... reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

No need to say anything about that.

Want Jefferson support?

“The precepts of philosophy laid hold of actions only. But Jesus pushed his scrutinies into the heart of man, erected His tribunal in the region of the thoughts, and purified the waters at the fountain head.”

“had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither king nor priest, the genuine doctrine of one God is reviving, and trust that there is not a young man in the United States who will not die a Christian . . . the doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. 1) That there is only one God and he, all perfect. 2) that there is a future state of rewards and punishments. 3) That to love God, with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thy self is the sum of religion.”

Sound like someone who would accept Darwinism?? I say that (that Jefferson would embrace darwinism) is BS!

Want more Adams?

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . .Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

This is why, again, Obama's administration and the courts are supporting international law! Our constitution is inadequate to govern in their minds.


How about John Quincy Adams in a speech given July 4th 1837 where he prefaced the quoted statement by asking why it was that the 4th of July and Christmas were our top two American holidays?...His answer to his own question:

“Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth. That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?”

Want case law? Here is a decision by the Supreme court in 1892:

“No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation.” (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States)

In that case there were 87 different historical precedents that the Court used to support its conclusions.

How about John Jay...the first Supreme Court Chief Justice and one of the three men most responsible for the Constitution itself :

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers

Perhaps that is enough support from the framers that we were founded on Christian principles, that our nation was considered by them as "a Christian Nation", and that our Constitution was developed for such a people. I could go on for hours and fill pages if you want but if that is not enough you guys will never get it?

In terms of your kids let me quote you, ask a question, and make a statement:

I told him he should listen, consider what his teacher was saying, and then make up his own mind.

Do you train your dog that way? Do you take out your dog, send him in the field and hope he makes the right decision...or any decision?

I believe that type action by a parent is why our kids are suffering so much at this time in history. It is a complete abdication of the parental role and irresponsibility at its highest to send an unlearned child in to a world that does not have his/her best interest at heart and hope that child will "make up his/her mind" and somehow benefit from the experience. Here are some statistics for consideration...

Since 1963 when the bible was officially ripped from our public school class rooms America has thrived...no it really has taken a nose dive:

America leads the world in violent crime
America leads the world in divorce
America leads the Western world in teen pregnancy
America leads in voluntary abortion
America leads in illegal drug usage
America leads the Western world in illiteracy

I think Washington was right!

[BrianW]

If there were no basis for religion in US Government why would there be any need for the Office of the Chaplaincy of the United States House of Representatives and the continuation of the tradition, established by the Continental Congresses of starting each proceeding with a prayer?

The 1st Amendment guarantees freedom of religion by the prohibition of Congressional establishment, not freedom from religion.
.

[YardleyLabs]

Let's start with the basics.

First, as a parent, my role has always been to help my children grow into responsible, compassionate and productive adults; not dogs. The training is very different. As adults, I expect them to listen to and consider the opinions of others and then to make up their own minds. They must be prepared to defend their positions and live with the consequences of their actions. You cannot train children to become that kind of adult if along the way you tell them all the "right" answers. In fact, on a regular basis I routinely gave my children bad information and incorrect answers where they knew better. If they failed to challenge me I would ask why they had not. They learned quickly that it was better to challenge me when they disagreed and happily continue to do so as adults.

On the Constitution, I would be interested in any direct quotes you can provide that evidence Christian intent in the body of the Constitution or in any of its amendments. The ones I am aware of are:

• the Constitution is dated "in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"
• Art. VI states "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The actual addition of the words "so help me God" to the Presidential Oath of Office has been done by some Presidents but is not part of the statutory oath, which is dictated by Article II which states "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
• First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." That language is even clearer than the second amendment right to bear arms.
• 14th Amendment: "Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Important because it is the basis for extending some Constitutional guarantees to the State level.

It seems to me that if there were ever an intent to define the United States as a Christian country, it would have appeared somewhere in the Constitution. Such language promoting a state religion certainly does appear in the Constitutions of many other countries both now and at the time that ours was drafted. Do you assume that this was simply an oversight? What language do you see in our adopted Constitution to support your position?

With respect to your quotes from Jefferson, there is an important context that you are leaving out. In stating that "there is only one God" Jefferson meant that Jesus was purely human. He believed that Jesus had, in barely three years of preaching, put forward an amazing moral framework that Jefferson supported in part and disagreed with in other parts, but still considered the best that had been articulated. He mourned the "fact" that those disciples surrounding Jesus -- both through their ignorance and through their own personal motives, had so corrupted his message.Jefferson wrote in a letter to Benjamin Rush "I am a Christian, in the only sense that he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."

Adams was a Unitarian (that is, he accepted the teachings of Jesus as articulated in the Gospels but did not accept the divinity of Jesus). He and Jefferson clashed bitterly at times but in the end it was at least partly based on the encouragement of Adams that Jefferson finally wrote the "Jefferson Bible". Jefferson had always believed that his religion was a completely personal matter and avoided discussing it in public. During his Presidential campaign he was repeatedly attacked as an atheist and anti-Christian -- claims which he largely ignored. He was elected anyway. The impetus for the Jefferson Bible began in conversations and correspondence with Benjamin Rush, whom he had befriended in 1776, and Joseph Priestly, but the project was not completed until about 1820.

In a letter to Van der Kamp in 1820, Jefferson wrote "While this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true and high light, as no impostor Himself, but a great Reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with Him in all of his doctrines. I am a Materialist; He takes the side of Spiritualism. He preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise or good work to redeem it..."

Please understand, Keith, that I am not arguing for or against any religious belief. I consider all religious beliefs to be matters of personal faith and respect them as such.

I am arguing against the revisionist notion that we were founded as a Christian country and have some form of obligation to support and preserve that Christianity. We were founded as a secular country by individuals who were, in almost every case Christian, but who believed wisely that our government had no business being involved in such matters. Writing a Constitution that only mentions religion in the context of saying that government should stay out of it was not and oversight, but a founding principal for our country.

[Franco]

I'll add this again for Keith;

In the Declaration of Independence Jefferson's appeal was to the God of the Deist, "Nature's God," not specifically to the God of Christianity (see letter dated Sep. 14, 1813, to Jefferson from John Adams equating "Nature's God" with "the revelation from nature").

Yes, Jefferson beleive in God, the Deist God. And, I do think Jefferson would have embraced Darwin.

Are we to discount science over the writings of ancient man, who had a very limited grasp of our origins? Ancient man's mind was full of superstitions, and much that modern science has clear with fact.

[Keith Farmer]

The training is very different

I totally disagree. That position, that children don't need proper training just let 'em figger it out on their own, is why our country is in the mess it is now...improper perspectives about the need for proper training with regards to our children in part has led to the statistics I posted previously...did you read those...do they bother you?...probably not. It really is sad that a post modern generation of adults have screwed up our future generations in such a way...good going!

As adults, I expect them to listen to and consider the opinions of others and then to make up their own minds.

You said you did that when they were in school. Adults may be a different story. As children you and I are obligated to extend the very best we can to our children. Neglecting that role or relegating it to someone else...even the child himself...is a cheap substitute for parenting.

I am arguing against the revisionist notion that we were founded as a Christian country and have some form of obligation to support and preserve that Christianity. We were founded as a secular country by individuals who were, in almost every case Christian, but who believed wisely that our government had no business being involved in such matters.

Jeff,

I tried to cite enough info about where the framers got their ideas about how to draft the Constitution...read the info I posted, don't just dismiss it. However, if you and others want to ignore the wealth of information supporting those truths then what else can I say?