Which Nation are we?

[Keith Farmer]

Yes, Jefferson beleive in God, the Deist God. And, I do think Jefferson would have embraced Darwin.

“had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would now have been Christian. I rejoice that in this blessed country of free inquiry and belief, which has surrendered its creed and conscience to neither king nor priest, the genuine doctrine of one God is reviving, and trust that there is not a young man in the United States who will not die a Christian . . . the doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. 1) That there is only one God and he, all perfect. 2) that there is a future state of rewards and punishments. 3) That to love God, with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thy self is the sum of religion.”

Booty, you are saying then that Jefferson lied when he said he wished that every man in the U.S. would die a Christian?

Man you guys are something else...

[Franco]

(snip)
With respect to your quotes from Jefferson, there is an important context that you are leaving out. In stating that "there is only one God" Jefferson meant that Jesus was purely human. He believed that Jesus had, in barely three years of preaching, put forward an amazing moral framework that Jefferson supported in part and disagreed with in other parts, but still considered the best that had been articulated.
(snip)
Jefferson wrote in a letter to Benjamin Rush "I am a Christian, in the only sense that he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other."

(snip)

.

Keith, I believe Jeff did a great job of covering your question, see above.

I do beleive that the "hardess heads" play here on the Potus forum, including you and me!

Just one reason I consider myself a political Independent.

[Keith Farmer]

Aint it fun though Booty?!

Here is an interesting case for you guys...see how you can twist this into some deist format:

In 1811 a case (People vs. Ruggles) came to the Court that dealt with a man who had gone into a fit of profanity. It was not a moment of anger or temporary loss of control, for he had taken the time to write it out and distribute it. It maliciously and capriciously attacked Jesus Christ in the vilest of terms. The Court explained the problems with his writings: an attack on Jesus Christ was an attack on Christianity; and an attack on Christianity was an attack on the foundation of the country; therefore, an attack on Jesus Christ was an equivalent to an attack on the country! The man was sentenced to 3 months in prison and a fine of $500.00 ( a princely sum in those days) for attacking the country by attacking Jesus Christ. Robert S. Dunn

You know, even Hussein Obama said we are a predominantly Christian Nation...just before he kow-towed on that and said we were Muslim, etc, then said we were not any of those things...which by the way is how all this started...

[YardleyLabs]

I totally disagree. That position, that children don't need proper training just let 'em figger it out on their own, is why our country is in the mess it is now...improper perspectives about the need for proper training with regards to our children in part has led to the statistics I posted previously...did you read those...do they bother you?...probably not. It really is sad that a post modern generation of adults have screwed up our future generations in such a way...good going!



You said you did that when they were in school. Adults may be a different story. As children you and I are obligated to extend the very best we can to our children. Neglecting that role or relegating it to someone else...even the child himself...is a cheap substitute for parenting.

Oh, I trained my kids and I believe I trained them very well. But I can't train someone to think for themselves and make decisions well unless I let them think for themselves, make decisions poorly, and suffer the consequences of their mistakes. As a parent, I try to limit the severity of their mistakes and the severity of the consequences, but I also train them to make decisions and accept responsibility as soon as they are verbal with increasing levels of freedom and responsibility as they grow.

A variety of basic rules went into my kids lives. Allowance begins at five and ends at 12. From 12 on there are lots of opportunities given for fairly paid jobs, but no financial gifts of any kind. If a kid needs jeans, she gets basic utilitarian jeans. If he want designer jeans, he earns the money and pays himself. At 12 they were also given the simple choice about meals: cook or clean, it was their choice. Both hated cleaning and became great cooks. They learned to read recipes, plan complete menus, prepare shopping lists, and plan and prepare multi-course meals. They also learned that at least on most nights, meals were a family event. Guests were welcome, but attendance by kids was not optional unless other arrangements were made days before as the menus for the week were planned. Beginning at age 16, my kids were expected to find ways to give back to their community. My son, for example, worked 1000 hours per year as a volunteer EMT on our local ambulance squad. On graduating from high school or at age 19, my kids knew it was time to move out -- either by going to college or getting a place of their own. If they went to college (which both did) they were given four years tuition, room and board, but no money for personal expenses, clothes, travel, or books. Those were their responsibility. Both have done exceptionally well since graduating -- as workers, as human beings, as members of their communities, and as parents. Last night my son in law was thanking me for that "out of the house by 19" rule and talking about how they have already started talking to my 5 year old granddaughter about how she will grow up and leave home when she is 19 and the different types of things she'll need to learn to be ready.

What my kids didn't get were instructions on what to believe. We discussed politics routinely, but they had to learn to present both sides of issues and to stick with facts. They learned to distinguish between a person, a person's stated beliefs, and a person's actions. They were not taught religion but were taught about the range of religious beliefs and were encouraged to visit their friend's churches. Both attended Christian and non-Christian churches at different times. They do not consider themselves to be Christian now, and neither am I.

Keith, you said "you and I are obligated to extend the very best we can to our children." I agree completely and believe that I did.

Jeff,

I tried to cite enough info about where the framers got their ideas about how to draft the Constitution...read the info I posted, don't just dismiss it. However, if you and others want to ignore the wealth of information supporting those truths then what else can I say?

I actually read your quotes, including trying to track down some of the more popular quotes repeated only on "save Christianity" web sites for which actual sources were never named. I also reread the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence several times. I won't quibble with your quotes, some of which are accurate, but I will repose the question I asked in turn. Where do you find evidence of the guiding Christian hand in the text of our Constitution?

Decimal based mathematics and our entire system of numbering, along with much of our early knowledge of astronomy came from peoples who were overwhelmingly pagan and Muslim. Does that mean that those sciences are shaped by and extend pagan and Muslim beliefs?

Culture, including religion, necessarily and appropriately help to shape governance. There is no question that much of our attittudes towards individual freedom derived from our predominantly Protestant (as distinct from Catholic) heritage in the 18th century, as well as from the fact that we were founded by a bunch of wild eyed anti-authoritarian rebels. Happily, for the most part, the Hamiltonians lost out to the Jeffersonians in the early years of our history and we were able to preserve our commitment to independence and rebelliousness rather than falling into a more orderly and authoritarian tradition. The fact that those traditions have worked for us does not make them universally correct for all. Different countries have their own cultures and resulting differences in their approaches to governance. A benefit for us is that we have often been successful at attracting the best ad the brightest of their rebels and the blood of those rebels has helped refresh ours through many waves of immigration. I hope that will continue to happen and that we will not sink into some moribund swamp of mediocrity where having differences of belief is considered to be un-American.

[YardleyLabs]

Aint it fun though Booty?!

Here is an interesting case for you guys...see how you can twist this into some deist format:



You know, even Hussein Obama said we are a predominantly Christian Nation...just before he kow-towed on that and said we were Muslim, etc, then said we were not any of those things...which by the way is how all this started...

If you investigated further you would see that the full citation for this case was 1811 NY The People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns 545 (Sup Ct N.Y. 1811). That is, it was a case filed under New York State law in New York Courts. It was never heard in Federal Court since, prior to the passage of the 14th Amendment few of the provisions of the Bill of Rights were assumed to restrict state actions. However, in New York State this decision was overturned. During a Constitutional Convention in 1826, an amendment was proposed that said "It shall not be declared or adjudged that any particular religion to be the law of the land." To avoid having this passed, Kent, who had authored the 1811 opinion specifically asserted that the opinion was never intended to define Christinanity as the religion of the land. (See http://candst.tripod.com/case03.htm)

Edit: There is also a big difference between saying we are a predominantly Christian -- meaning that most of our population identify themselves as Christian -- and saying that somehow our country is founded on Christianity and should be fulfilling some Christian mission. Given that only a very small minority of our population would support your definitions of Christianity, does that make your religion un-American?

[Franco]

Aint it fun though Booty?!

Yes it is and enlighting too!

There are only two subjects I like to debate/argue more than football...politics and religion.

[Keith Farmer]

By the way, I am not using "save Christianity" web sites for my quotes Jeff...The quotes are what they are...you are distorting their intent, maligning the framers, and twisting details so they fit your schemes...

What my kids didn't get were instructions on what to believe.

That is precisely why our heritage, our sense of worth and value, and the truth is being fettered away...we (read Americans in general) don't teach our kids what the truth is...just make it up as you go is the norm now...again sad! It is called moral relativism. Whatever truth you find is truth to you and whatever truth I find is my truth. The problem with that is we both will answer to the Creater Who says that His Word is truth. His Word by the way is Jesus Christ (I can detail that for you if you would like) Who is the only pathway in order to obtain salvation "...no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved". "

Decimal based mathematics and our entire system of numbering, along with much of our early knowledge of astronomy came from peoples who were overwhelmingly pagan and Muslim. Does that mean that those sciences are shaped by and extend pagan and Muslim beliefs?

Tell me what the very first text book in American public schools was Jeff. The tell me what method, exactly what the words were, that was used to teach the alphabet. Just want to see you post the words...

and saying that somehow our country is founded on Christianity and should be fulfilling some Christian mission

I don't think I am saying that our country was "founded on Christianity"...I am saying, as did the framers, that Christian principles (you know those pesky little ideals that drive someone in a certain direction) were indeed the foundation for what became the Constitution. You are making something out of nothing here Jeff. You cannot deny the myriad of evidence that the framers used Christian principles to build our Constitution and our organic laws...you just cannot make that work.

What do you do with the Mayflower compact Jeff? Can you butcher this up somehow? (By the way, the annotation at the end Anno Domini means the year of our Lord. It is sometimes specified more fully as Anno Domini Nostri Iesu (Jesu) Christi ("In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ")...just so ya know!

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

How about Henry (my emphasis)...

Patrick Henry (1736-1799), five-time Governor of Virginia, whose "Give me liberty or give me death" speech has made him immortal, said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly, nor too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. . . ."

Jefferson again...

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), third U.S. President, chosen to write the Declaration of Independence, said: "I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also." He proclaimed that it was the God of the Bible who founded America in his 1805 inaugural address: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in this country."

That "Being ...who led...Israel" was/is Jehovah God (not a god worshipped by deists)...that is easily provable so I will not go in to that...unless you are not aware of the exodus, Moses, etc???

[YardleyLabs]

By the way, I am not using "save Christianity" web sites for my quotes Jeff...The quotes are what they are...you are distorting their intent, maligning the framers, and twisting details so they fit your schemes...

Any examples?

That is precisely why our heritage, our sense of worth and value, and the truth is being fettered away...we don't teach our kids what the truth is...just make it up as you go...again sad!

And here I thought I was bringing them up in accordance with the best of American ideals....

• Work
• Compassion and charity
• Curiosity
• Courage
• Intellectual independence
• Honesty and integrity
• Commitment to family, community, country and world

Which of those would you have me throw out?

Tell me what the very first text book in American public schools was Jeff. The tell me what method, exactly what the words were, that was used to teach the alphabet. Just want to see you post the words...

It's hard to know what you mean by "American public schools". The following comes from "A History of Public Education in the United States"
by Deeptha Thattai:

The most preliminary form of public education was in existence in the 1600s in the New England colonies of Massachusetts, Connecticut and New Hampshire. The overriding belief on educating the children was more due to religious reasons and was easy to implement, as the only groups in existence were the Puritans and the Congregationalists. However, the influx of people from many countries and belonging to different faiths led to a weakening of the concept. People refused to learn only in English and opposed the clergy imposing their religious views through public education. By the middle of the eighteenth century, private schooling had become the norm.



After the Declaration of Independence, 14 states had their own constitutions by 1791, and out of the 14, 7 states had specific provisions for education. Jefferson believed that education should be under the control of the government, free from religious biases, and available to all people irrespective of their status in society. Others who vouched for public education around the same time were Benjamin Rush, Noah Webster, Robert Coram and George Washington. It was still very difficult to translate the concept to practice because of the political upheavals, vast immigration, and economic transformations. Thus, even for many more decades, there were many private schools, and charitable and religious institutions dominating the scene."

If you are referring to the Puritan schools in the 17th century, I suspect the answer would be the Bible (not sure what edition). Even later many schools would have used the Bible simply because of the shortage of other books in many areas.

I don't think I am saying that our country was "founded on Christianity"...I am saying, as did the framers, that Christian principles (you know those pesky little ideals that drive someone in a certain direction) were indeed the foundation for what became the Constitution. You are making something out of nothing here Jeff. You cannot deny the myriad of evidence that the framers used Christian principles to build our Constitution and our organic laws...you just cannot make that work.

I identified the areas of our Constitution that appeared to reflect religious consideration. You are obviously seeing something that I am not. Can you give an example (other than the date, which I also noted in my list).

What do you do with the Mayflower compact Jeff? Can you butcher this up somehow? (By the way, the annotation at the end Anno Domini means the year of our Lord. It is sometimes specified more fully as Anno Domini Nostri Iesu (Jesu) Christi ("In the Year of Our Lord Jesus Christ")...just so ya know!

Happily, even Massachusetts had pretty much given up on the Puritans by the time of the revolution (turning more to Unitarianism and Congregationalism) and their example was reason enough for the other colonies to want to make sure that such Puritanical fanaticism would not seep out into the other colonies. This was of greatest concern to neighbor Rhode Island which championed the First Amendment prohibition against "any law respecting the establishment of religion".

How about Henry (my emphasis)...

Snopes identifies this as a "spurious quotation" that "does not appear anywhere in the writings or recorded utterances of Patrick Henry." (See http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp for this and for responses on many of the other quotes you have provided).


[quote=Keith Farmer;427656]
Jefferson again...

[/quote}
As far as I can tell this quote originated in Eidsmore's book Christianity and the Constitution but I can't tell where he got it and don't have his book. However, you can find a very comprehensive discussion of Jefferson's religious beliefs and their evolution from 1776 through publication of the Jefferson Bible in 1820 in the forward to The Jefferson Bile: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth published Beacon Press with a forward by Forrest Church (author of the discussion I referenced). Jefferson had little regard for the disciples of Jesus as historians or chroniclers of Jesus' ministry. He invested 20 years in an effort to try to discern the true beliefs of Jesus as a man. While he did not, as I noted previously, accept all that Jesus preached (and none of what he viewed as the spurious additions found in the Bible), he believed that the moral framework espoused by Jesus was indeed the most perfect, as I also noted before. What did Jefferson reject from the Gospels? Every account of any miraculous event. For Jefferson, Jesus was an extraordinary human being who suffered death at the hands of the Romans and whose memory was repeatedly slain again by the distortions of his followers. None of this mean Jefferson was right. But I do not believe I am distorting his beliefs.

That "Being ...who led...Israel" was/is Jehovah God (not a god worshipped by deists)...that is easily provable so I will not go in to that...unless you are not aware of the exodus, Moses, etc???

Jefferson was certainly referring to the God of the Hebrews. However, his own view of God seems to have been very flexible. He viewed the teachings of Jesus as a worthy improvement on the religion of the Hebrews and viewed his own "Materialist" beliefs as an imprvement on the beliefs of Jesus. His hope was that people would adopt his own "purer" and somewhat more rebellious view of God and morality. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US who will not die an Unitarian." and he submitted a request to the Unitarian Association that they send a minister to his area in Virginia. Needless to say, he got neither of his wishes.

[Keith Farmer]

I identified the areas of our Constitution that appeared to reflect religious consideration. You are obviously seeing something that I am not. Can you give an example (other than the date, which I also noted in my list).

Jeff,

My contention is not that the Constitution directly states religious wording. My contention is that overwhelming proof exists that the framers used Christian principles (much like you cited about raising your kids...which I'll get to momentarily) during the construction phase of the Constitution. If you don't see that then I am sorry.

And here I thought I was bringing them up in accordance with the best of American ideals....

• Work
• Compassion and charity
• Curiosity
• Courage
• Intellectual independence
• Honesty and integrity
• Commitment to family, community, country and world

Which of those would you have me throw out?

And where did America get those ideals from Jeff...certainly not Islam, Hinduism, deism, or any other ...ism. They also did not just appear on the scene or in a mans heart/mind...why: The heart (mind) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 (AKJV) That is why our minds need to be renewed with the mind of Christ.

and

There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;[c]

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;[d]
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]


Your list:

1) Work. The bible says concerning work..."If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10 (NIV)

2) Compassion and Charity. The bible says... "Now as touching things offered to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies." 1 Corinthians 8:1 (AKJV)

3) Curiosity. The bible says..."Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Matthew 7:7(NASV)

4) Courage. The bible says..."Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you." Deuteronomy 31:6 (NASV)

5) Honesty and Integrity. The bible says..."I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Romans 12:1 & 2 (KJV)

6) Commitment to family, community, country, and world.

There is a problem with the last one. You see Jeff you left out the most important commitment for your family...the commitment to God. You may scoff but the list of commitments you gave in 6 is incomplete and dangerous...here is why: 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”Mark 8:36-38 (KJV)

You should really reconsider that last one Jeff...

[Keith Farmer]

Oh yeah,

The first book I referenced...here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_England_Primer