Which Nation are we?

[Matt McKenzie]

Keith,
What do you propose as a solution to this country's slow drift away from Christianity?

[Keith Farmer]

Keith,
What do you propose as a solution to this country's slow drift away from Christianity?

That is a great question Matt. Adrian Rogers addressed this question some time before he passed. He said the answer was for America's churches to get rid of their relativistic preachers who are avoiding the true Word of God and get back to basic principles of the faith.

I would add that churches should give up their tax exempt status and preach the truth without fear of repercussion.

In terms of a biblical response this is a standing promise from God concerning just the issues we are dealing with now:

If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 (ASV)

[Matt McKenzie]

That is a great question Matt. Adrian Rogers addressed this question some time before he passed. He said the answer was for America's churches to get rid of their relativistic preachers who are avoiding the true Word of God and get back to basic principles of the faith.

I would add that churches should give up their tax exempt status and preach the truth without fear of repercussion.

In terms of a biblical response this is a standing promise from God concerning just the issues we are dealing with now:

If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 (ASV)

The question then, I believe, would be who determines what is "the truth".

[YardleyLabs]

Jeff,

...

And where did America get those ideals from Jeff...certainly not Islam, Hinduism, deism, or any other ...ism. They also did not just appear on the scene or in a mans heart/mind...why: The heart (mind) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 (AKJV) That is why our minds need to be renewed with the mind of Christ.

....

6) Commitment to family, community, country, and world.

There is a problem with the last one. You see Jeff you left out the most important commitment for your family...the commitment to God. You may scoff but the list of commitments you gave in 6 is incomplete and dangerous...here is why: 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”Mark 8:36-38 (KJV)

You should really reconsider that last one Jeff...

Excuse the partial quote.

I disagree on your initial premise. In my own experience those values are very cross cultural. They are found in Islam, in Buddhism, in Judaism, and even in secular humanism.

With respect to your last point, I would have to say that I cannot envision a God that would be capable of putting together a universe as complex, as interesting, as changing, and miraculous as ours but that would also base salvation on practices of worship.

For me, as a matter of faith, that is inconceivable. I do not "blame" God for my morality -- living my life in a moral fashion is my personal responsibility whether or not a God exists. As Jefferson would say, I am more interested in acts than I am in beliefs. I only consider the latter relevant to the extent that they inform action.

I actually do attend church regularly, but one where the Bible is no more likely to be read than the Koran and neither is read very often. I read the Bible as a child because my mother believed it was impossible to understand western literature and culture without it. I've read it as an adult for that reason and because I respect the efforts that it reflects to explore morality.

I have read at least portions of the Talmud, the Koran, and religious readings from around the world and across time for similar reasons. I believe almost all of them carry insights that are important to all of us and I find more similarities than differences.

But then, I don't care what you call the spirit of life. I don't care if you believe it is the God of Moses, or the tree spirits of the Druids, or even if it all simply comes down to the Big Bang. All of those, in my mind, are legitimate as long as they are bound by a fundamental respect for life and a respect for the moral framework that allows life to thrive. I understand that my beliefs are very different from yours, and possibly even abhorrent. I believe that the strength of our country is that it allows both of us equal freedom of faith.

By the way, I also believe that churches should give up their tax exemption and practice what they preach within the law but without concern for the approval or disapproval of the government. As a board member at my church I suggested this but was voted down by those more concerned by the financial implications (and I was the treasurer).

[road kill]

"One nation, under God...."

[YardleyLabs]

"One nation, under God...."

A change made to the Pledge of Allegiance after I had already learned the original version in school. The bill changing it was passed in 1954, but it didn't reach my school until 1956. Of historic interest is that the pledge itself was written by a socialist in 1892. I don't think you would have found support for anything similar among the attendees of the Continental Congress in 1787. It took the Cold War to force the legislation through when 50 years of intense lubbying by the Knights of Columbus, among many others, had failed.

[BrianW]

According toThe Pledge of Allegiance A Short History by Dr. John W. Baer, Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist.

Also according to http://wiki.answers.com http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/fischer/070502/Q/Did_the_Continental_Congress_open_with_a_prayer & http://www.historywiz.com/continentalcongress.htm

The first Continental Congress opened with a motion to pray this was objected to because the founders weren't sure which clergyman should give this prayer due to their being Episcopalians, Quakers, Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists present.

According to John Adams, "Samuel Adams arose and said that he was no bigot, and could hear a Prayer from any gentleman of Piety and virtue, who was at the same time a friend to his Country."

As a result of Sam Adams' intervention, the motion carried and an Episcopalian clergyman, Rev. Jacob Duche', was prevailed upon to open the next morning's session in prayer.

Duche' read Psalm 35 he then read a prayer:
"Be Thou present, O God of Wisdom, and direct the counsel of this Honorable Assembly; enable them to settle all things on the best and surest foundation; that the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that Order, Harmony, and Peace may be effectually restored, and that Truth and Justice, Religion and Piety, prevail and flourish among the people."

Duche' went on to ask God to preserve the delegates' health and vigor of mind, and to grant them "temporal Blessings" and "everlasting Glory in the world to come."

Rev. Duche' closed his prayer this way: "All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Saviour, Amen."

[Keith Farmer]

The question then, I believe, would be who determines what is "the truth".

Matt,

You see, that is why moral relativism does not work. Truth has to have a foundation; it cannot be based on ones ideas of what truth should/could be...that is idolotry and idolotry will destroy a person.

I will give you biblical evidence of truth...you decide how to deal with it (this by the way is not an exhaustive list but should be suffecient for an answer):

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
John 17:2 & 3
As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Psalm 19:9
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
Psalm 33:4
For the word of the Lord is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psalm 57:10
For thy mercy is great unto the heavens, and thy truth unto the clouds.
John 8:31b-32
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
John 17:17
Sanctify them through truth: thy word is truth.
John 18:37 & 38
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
II Thessalonians 2:10-13
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

With regard to John 17:17 (...Thy Word is truth) look closely at the following:

(John1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(John 1:14) And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This says to believers in Christ that He is truth. Our faith in Christ places our faith in truth. This is not an abstract view of religion but a crystalized view of the only mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus.

[Franco]

John 17:2 & 3

As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So Keith, all of the other major religions of the world have it wrong? By your statement, Christianity and its many, many different view points is the only true religion?

I don't think so.

[Matt McKenzie]

Keith,
My point was that Catholics, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Pentacostals, etc., etc. etc. all read the same book and come up with their own version of "truth". Who is right? Does that make the rest of them wrong?
There are some pretty dangerous folks all over the world from many different religions who feel that their version of the truth is the only way and are unwilling to accept others with different beliefs. Fortunately for us, God blessed us by allowing us to be born in a country founded on individual liberty and religious freedom. Most of the founders of this country were without a doubt religious men and Christians to some degree. The beauty of their creation was that religion and politics are intermingled, while church and government are seperate. I agree with you that the basis of all morality is religious in nature and that the social mores that guide this country are based on Judeo-Christian values. I also believe that there is a direct correlation between many of our current social problems and a decline in the number of people in this country who consider themselves religious and actively attend church.
My wife and I only have one school-age child still at home with us and he has always attended private Christian schools. There are many reasons we made that choice, but I, like Jeff, believe in allowing my children to use thier own minds. In middle school science, he was taught both creation and evolution. Even he could immediately see huge problems with the theories put forth by those who attempt to use scientific methods to prove that the earth is only a few thousand years old. He also has legitimate questions about the big bang theory. I don't think his mind has been "poisoned" by being exposed to either creation or evolution theory, but I feel he would be limited if I did not do my part to see that he got many different points of view. If he choses not to believe in the literal translation of Genesis, I don't think that he will be adversely affected in his relationship with God or his fellow man. The same holds true if he decides that he doesn't believe in evolution. He will still know right from wrong, he will still have the values that he has learned from his parents, his school and his church, and will hopefully grow into a productive member of our society and (the highest honor of all) a "good man". One man's opinion.
I've found that in conversations regarding religion, it is far too easy to offend people I respect, so I think I'll stop here. I'll go back to offending folks about politics, which I don't mind at all. If I can ever make it up to your neck of the woods to train, maybe we can talk about this more.