Which Nation are we?

[Keith Farmer]

I cannot envision a God that would... base salvation on practices of worship.

Jeff,

The reason you cannot envision that of Jehovah God is because it is not true. Works are the basis for the world's religions. However, your misunderstanding about the redemptive plan of salvation is a lie from the minds of corrupt false teachers who do not have the interest of salvation at heart. Judaism and Christianity are God's organized plans. Nearly all of the world's religions can be traced back to Nimrod and the organized pagan worship he developed in Babylon. Almost every dominant religion (except perhaps that involving witchcraft, devil worship, etc.) is a perversion of Judaism or Christianity (even some that claim to be Christian). I don't want to try and develop that but if you want to discuss details let me know...may take days but we can get it done. In terms of Christianity (which is a relationship based on grace from agape love by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and faith by redeemed sinners) I ask you to consider the following.

I'll try and keep this brief...

Christianity is not a religion. All of the world's religions base their ideologies on works (the so called practices of worship you stated).

First, salvation is necessary because man sinned against a Holy God by rebelling against His ordinances causing a separation between man and God that man could not bridge no matter what efforts were used. Subsequently, every man born in this world is born with a sin nature and spirtitually dead. The term born again is valid and necessary since we cannot enter heaven, see God, or experience salvation unless we are made alive spiritually. We cannot commune with God unless we do so in spirit and truth and that is impossible unless we have been made alive by being born again.

Christianity is based completely on the completed work of the cross (accomplished by God Himself as noted above in that He became flesh and dwelt among us). God has not required of man that he do anything...in fact man cannot do anything whereby he can be saved. The bible declares that man's righteousness (man's best efforts at trying to bridge that gap outside of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ) are as filthy rags to a Holy God. Further, the bible declares that salvation is not a result of man's works...the worship you refer to...so that no man can boast that he had anything to do with the process. The process, according to scripture, is thus:

God extends salvation to a sinful world via His Icon and our Saviour Jesus Christ. God does this strictly through grace which is unmerited favor...we did nothing whereby we should receive His gift yet He offers it (salvation) anyway: (Romans 5:8 NKJV) But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God calls man to salvation in Christ through His Holy Spirit...man cannot come otherwise: (John 6:44 KJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

God gives man the faith by which he answers the call: (Hebrews 12:2 KJV) “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.”

We answer the call by repenting of our sins placing faith in the completed work of Jesus, and accepting His sacrifice as payment for the sin penalty (which was/is spiritual and physical death and eternal separation from God) (Acts 2:36-40 NKJV): "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." {37} Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" {38} Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. {39} "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. {40} And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation"

God makes us a completely new being when we come to Christ and accept His redemptive offer: (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

God gives us assurance of our salvation (unlike religions whereby salvation attempting works are weighed in a balance and one never really knows for sure) (Romans 8:38,39, NKJV) For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God has placed within man an understanding of Himself so that man's rejection would not have an excuse in ignorance. Paul said while speaking at Mars Hill to the men of Athens after seeing an altar marked with the inscription "To The Unkown God": (Acts 17:30 KJV) “the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent”.

Further, the bible declares: (Romans 1:18-22 NKJV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,...

I stand with Paul, who when writing to Timothy penned these words:

(i Timothy 1:15 NKJV) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

At this time of the celebration of the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may we not forget that He alone is worthy to provide salvation. He alone is worthy of our praise. He alone is worthy of our worship. He alone is worthy...(Rev. 5:9)They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

There is more theology/truth in the above than most will hear in perhaps as many as 90% of America's churches this weekend. That is the Gospel made clear. Please treat it with the respect and dignity it deserves.

May God bless each of you.

[twall]

Sorry guys but this thread just reaffirms to me why seperation of chruch from state is so important if we are to remain a free country.

Franco,

I agree completely with the seperation of church and state, to protect the "church" form a state religion. Not, to protect the state from christianity. This concept has been turned around 180 degrees in the past few decades. They wanted freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Most of the early settlers came here from countries with state sanctioned religions. Many of the early colonies were inhabited by predominately one faith. The term "seperation of chruch and state" was first penned by Thomas Jefferson in a private letter to the Danbury CT Baptist church to assure them he was not going to create a state religion.

I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone. I am compelled to share my faith. No one is compelled to accept it. Liberty and justice for all is a foundational tennant of this country. Recently, with the growth of secular humanism and post-modernism, christianity, and white males, have become a class that it is acceptable to discriminated against.

I think what many of us have found offensive is the revisoinist, and apologetic, slant our current president has applied to many of his recent comments. We cannot look at our founding fathers values and beliefs with todays values and beliefs. I don't believe any of our founding fathers would support many of the things that are "legal" today under the constitution they wrote.

Ultimately, we both have the freedom to disagree on this and any issue because of where we live.

God bless the USA!

Tom

[nrsergent]

Keith,

The truth could not be stated any clearer than what you just wrote!!
Excepting that truth would mean as you know that men and women would have to answer to a Holy God for their lifestyles and there can be none of that.... We as a Nation have removed and are on the verge of trying to remove every reference to God in our Nation.
Even non-christian people can recognize this fact. If any other religion was attacked in this manner there there would be an uproar!!
The World and our Nation calls Jesus "a good man," "a wise teacher," "a moral teacher," "a moral example," and other references, but reject him as GOD.
Here lays the problem that people have with excepting that our Nation was built and designed as a Christian Nation.

[Pete]

My point was that Catholics, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Calvinists, Pentacostals, etc., etc. etc. all read the same book and come up with their own version of "truth". Who is right? Does that make the rest of them wrong?

God is logical ,,,he created the heavens and the earth .. He cannot contradict himself. If he does he is not much of a God.
So if there is 1 God there must be 1 will of God.
There are over 4000 different organized belief systems in this world. Many or I will say all contradict what is written somewhere along the line.

Some contradict the bible alot and blatently ,,, and others very little.
Most of christianity today is derived from paganism.
Constantine tried in 3 something AD to form a world religion ,,,mixing pagan beleifs with christian beliefs.

There is no doubt in my mind that we can get back to the original or close to it ,,,Gods intent via hundreds of research books covering,,manners and customs,,orientalisms,,hebrew idiums,word changes and the evendence of fraudulent verses added, through simple books such as concordances,lexicons,greek interlinears, scripture indexes, and so many more.
Hell the tranlation of Kings english into our modern day english has cause scholars great difficulty in translation. In contrast its incredably simple to figure out.
Here is the rub.
You must put everything religion has ever taught you and toss it aside.
If you start with the false premise you will come up with a false conclusion. And the more lies or falsehoods you throw into the equation the bigger bunch of hog wash it become.

There is know doubt in my mind that a person can understand Gods true intent for man.
Where man can worship God in spirit and in trueth. Its silly to try to force this stuff down peoples throat. You speak it,,,like God exhorts his people to do,,,then people have the choice if they want to believe or not.

The problem with christianity is there are so many hood winkers and so many top religious leaders have perverted the word over the years that no body wants to believe no body ,,,
It exactly what the god of this world had planned ,,,,IIcor 4:4

You have to be an incredably tough SOB these days to walk the walk and not give a crap what others may think.
Christians who are wimps need to evaluate what they are practicing.

Let me ask you this. Do you think God glories in seeing what he made formed and created worshipping rocks and calling then god.?

Pete

[zeus3925]

Interesting discussion! FYI, Kieth Ellingson took his oath of office on the Quran
from Jefferson's library.

[YardleyLabs]

Franco,

I agree completely with the seperation of church and state, to protect the "church" form a state religion. Not, to protect the state from christianity. This concept has been turned around 180 degrees in the past few decades. They wanted freedom of religion not freedom from religion. Most of the early settlers came here from countries with state sanctioned religions. Many of the early colonies were inhabited by predominately one faith. The term "seperation of chruch and state" was first penned by Thomas Jefferson in a private letter to the Danbury CT Baptist church to assure them he was not going to create a state religion.

.....

I do not think it's possible to have freedom of religion unless the government itself is unreligious. That does not mean that the people who work in/for government must be without religion (although it does mean that they may be without religion); it means that they may not use the trappings of government to further their religion. For years, various states tried to come up with non-sectarian prayers that could then be used in schools without violating the prohibition on actions "respecting an establishment of religion". The reality is that there is no such thing; there is no common religious denominator that is universally accepted.

Keith, I understand and respect your beliefs, but I don't share them. I have no problems with anybody's religious beliefs until they expect me to accept them as my own or until they use the powers and offices of government to promote those beliefs. The magic of our laws is that, in the end, they are only laws. Violating them may result in punishment, but not damnation. Obeying them brings no salvation and could conceivably result in damnation.

It is not necessary or appropriate to legislate morality -- we can't even agree on what that means. However, in those cases where compromises are reached among people of different moral beliefs that a particular form of behavior should be made legal or illegal, that law may be passed. However, it is still a law of man, not morality. Even our separation of church and state may be overturned through Constitutional amendment although I hope it never will be for my own sake and the sake of my children and grandchildren.

[Keith Farmer]

It is not necessary or appropriate to legislate morality

Ah but Jeff, that is precisely what liberal judges are doing with complete support from your side of the world. Look at the gay marriage decisions where the people voted against that act but liberal judges thumbed their noses and said go ahead...who really cares anyway?? Where was your outrage over that Jeff? (maybe you disagree but most liberals are silent on the issue)

I am not for legislating morality any more than I am for taking away the autonomy of weekend field trial judges...self decision within the frame work of constitutional law (which is biblically based) is the perfect scenario for a free, democratic people. But again, Jeff, your side of the fence is trying its darndest to strip that away...where is your outrage over US Justices citing International law in an American case such as in Lawrence v. Texas (as well as others)? Where is your outrage over Obama's nominee Harold Koh to be the State Department's top lawyer?


Someone has said that using coercion to drive charity is like kidnapping someone in an effort to create love. I am happy you and I have the choices we have in terms of religious freedom.

Even our separation of church and state may be overturned

Tell me where that is in our Constitution whereby it can be "overturned". The establishment clause I know...but where is the separation clause?...oh yeah, that too has been legislated from the bench without precedence!

Keith, I understand and respect your beliefs, but I don't share them.

Jeff, what I shared previously are the directives of the Creator; the Creator who is cited in the Declaration of Independence (by the way, you never said how you educated your kids about who that Creator was/is....again, did you lie to them or just skip over that portion?). I am proud to embrace those ideals. I am proud to pass those ideals along to my family and friends. I am privileged to be able to call myself a Christian, an American, and in the mind of George Washington a Patriot! If you choose not to embrace those ideals that is certainly your prerogative. However, Jeff, you are not snubbing my beliefs. You are snubbing the only plan of redemption, the only plan of salvation, by the very Creator of the universe to whom you will give an account and by whom you will be judged. The Creator who probed Job with these quetions...see how many you can answer Jeff:

The LORD Speaks

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?
8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?
12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]
or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?
34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'? 36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?

[YardleyLabs]

Ah but Jeff, that is precisely what liberal judges are doing with complete support from your side of the world. Look at the gay marriage decisions where the people voted against that act but liberal judges thumbed their noses and said go ahead...who really cares anyway?? Where was your outrage over that Jeff? (maybe you disagree but most liberals are silent on the issue)

I am not for legislating morality any more than I am for taking away the autonomy of weekend field trial judges...self decision within the frame work of constitutional law (which is biblically based) is the perfect scenario for a free, democratic people. But again, Jeff, your side of the fence is trying its darndest to strip that away...where is your outrage over US Justices citing International law in an American case such as in Lawrence v. Texas (as well as others)? Where is your outrage over Obama's nominee Harold Koh to be the State Department's top lawyer?


Someone has said that using coercion to drive charity is like kidnapping someone in an effort to create love. I am happy you and I have the choices we have in terms of religious freedom.



Tell me where that is in our Constitution whereby it can be "overturned". The establishment clause I know...but where is the separation clause?...oh yeah, that too has been legislated from the bench without precedence!



Jeff, what I shared previously are the directives of the Creator; the Creator who is cited in the Declaration of Independence (by the way, you never said how you educated your kids about who that Creator was/is....again, did you lie to them or just skip over that portion?). I am proud to embrace those ideals. I am proud to pass those ideals along to my family and friends. I am privileged to be able to call myself a Christian, an American, and in the mind of George Washington a Patriot! If you choose not to embrace those ideals that is certainly your prerogative. However, Jeff, you are not snubbing my beliefs. You are snubbing the only plan of redemption, the only plan of salvation, by the very Creator of the universe to whom you will give an account and by whom you will be judged. The Creator who probed Job with these quetions...see how many you can answer Jeff:

....?

1. Gay marriage: In each case where courts have allowed gay marriage, it has been a state court acting on the basis of the language of a state constitution that prohibited discrimination, effectively stating that to modify the terms of the state constitution requires an amendment, not a simple law. In California the constitution was amended based on a referendum although there are questions about whether the referendum itself was legal. Froma personal perspective, I don't believe that government should be in the marriage business at all. It is a relatively recent phenomenon that arose lergely to help settle property and custody disputes in marriages that were ending, along with inheritances. In my mind thaoe are issues that could be handled with civil unions. Let churches handle marriages rites any way they want. To the extent that marriage law becomes a weapon to offer privileges to some based on their living arrangements while denying those same privileges to others, I oppose them.

2. "International law", in the form of English Common Law, has been a foundation for our legal system since its beginnings and many of the precedents cited in courts cases since the beginning of our country have been based on cases in other countries.

3. Harold Koh has an extraordinary background. I think the administration is lucky to get him. Would that a similar standard of competence had governed attorney appointments over the last eight years.

4. Theology: I have tried to focus my comments on the relationship between religion and the state as you raised it in your initial post. I do this for two reasons. Chris has asked that we not discuss theology on the forum. Personally I enjoy such discussions but it'a not my forum and I understand his concern. Second, I simply disagree with your beliefs. What you view as divine I view as human because it was originally written by humans and has been interpreted and reinterpreted over the millenia by humans. Like Booty, I feel that it is the ultimate human arrogance to assume that your (or my) interpretation is the one and only divinely inspired truth. However, each of us is entitled to believe what he chooses. I prefer to live in a country with a constitution that says simply that the government shall "make no law respecting the establishment of religion" and that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust."

[Franco]

What you view as divine I view as human because it was originally written by humans and has been interpreted and reinterpreted over the millenia by humans. Like Booty, I feel that it is the ultimate human arrogance to assume that your (or my) interpretation is the one and only divinely inspired truth. However, each of us is entitled to believe what he chooses.

AMEN!

P S I didn't know Chris didn't want us to discuss religion. I just thought he wanted it all to be civil, which this thread certainly is.

I'll just add that religious writings tend to be selfserving. Everything being absolute(dogma) in the writers mind in promoting thier beliefs. I don't beleive many of them know the truth and I make that comment about all the major religions of the world.

I also find it interesting that Christianity and Islam are so similar yet, through the ages they have killed one another by the millions in the name of god. Both are very judgemental religions.

[Pete]

2Pe 1:16¶ For gar we have exakolouqew not ou followed exakolouqew cunningly devised sojizw fables muqoV, when we made known gnwrizw unto you umin the power dunamiV and kai coming parousia of our hmon Lord kurioV Jesus IhsouV Christ CristoV, but alla were ginomai eyewitnesses epopthV of his ekeinoV majesty megaleiothV. 2Pe 1:17For gar he received lambanw from para God qeoV the Father pathr honour timh and kai glory doxa, when there came jerw such toiosde a voice jwnh to him autoV from upo the excellent megaloprephV glory doxa, This outoV is esti my mou beloved agaphtoV Son uioV, in eiV whom oV I egw am well pleased eudokew. 2Pe 1:18And kai this tauth voice jwnh which came jerw from ek heaven ouranoV we hmeiV heard akouw, when we were wn with sun him autoV in en the holy agioV mount oroV. 2Pe 1:19¶ We have ecw also kai a more sure bebaioV word logoV of prophecy projhtikoV; whereunto oV ye do poiew well kalwV that ye take heed prosecw, as wV unto a light lucnoV that shineth jainw in en a dark aucmhroV place topoV, until ewV ou the day hmera dawn diaugazw, and kai the day star jwsjoroV arise anatellw in en your umwn hearts kardia: 2Pe 1:20Knowing ginwskw this touto first prwton, that oti no ou paV prophecy projhteia of the scripture grajh is ginomai of any private idioV interpretation epilusiV. 2Pe 1:21For gar the prophecy projhteia came jerw not ou in old time pote by the will qelhma of man anqrwpoV: but alla holy agioV men anqrwpoV of God qeoV spake lalew as they were moved jerw by upo the Holy agioV Ghost pneuma

It boils down to weather you believe Gods word or not.
Some do,,, some don't.
"Is of any private interpretations" ,,,means just that.

Either there is no interpretation or it must interpret itself because no one can privately interpret it. The greek word is idios or ones own. Either you believe these men were inspired through revalation or you don't

Either you believe or you don't,,,,there is no yea buts
.

Pete