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Thread: A counter to the "torture debate"

  1. #21
    Senior Member Bob Gutermuth's Avatar
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    I am also in the camp that thinks methods should be secondary as long as you get results. I personally think that more of these enemy scumbags should be subjected to harsh interrogations not less. Barry Goldwater was correct, " Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!"
    Bob Gutermuth
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cotts135 View Post
    Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
    Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.
    I agree Cotts so why do you call up your man and tell him to release ALL the documents on the situation. I mean he was willing to release some of them why not release the rest so we can get some real transparency not this quasi transparency where we only release things that hurt the past administration or opposing party. I guess when members of your own party knew and signed off on the techniques then you would be reluctant too.

    And as a note to your asking if we would be mad if it happened to our troops. Yes i sure would but i also realize that war is a nasty thing and so do the people who signed up for it. I am not one of those that believe that life is fair and everyone should be treated nicely. If you do bad things to my country and have information about it i may ask nicely once but from there on out the asking will become much tougher.

    As far as the techniques go correct me if i am wrong but this isn't illegal because they are not US citizens or in this country. They are not in any part of any flagged army. So how exactly is this illegal by either our constitution or the geneva convention?
    Last edited by Cody Covey; 04-23-2009 at 05:43 PM.

  3. #23
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cotts135 View Post
    Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
    Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.
    NOt flagged army....no laws broken.

    I kind of doubt that you or I will ever know that....kind of think that would still be classified and just a bit over our pay grade don't ya think
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cotts135 View Post
    Hookset & Badbullgator I applaud your honesty and respect your opinion, but as you probably already know I strongly disagree with you. For one I don't believe in Waterboard lite............... If you read Article 3 of the Geneva convention and what constitutes torture you would be hard pressed that saying the presence of a doctor is comfort to the prisoner or alleviates the conditions that define torture. Plus I haven't seen any credible evidence that it obtained any decent intelligence. What I see is time and time again are agents either from the CIA, FBI or Army Intelligence officers who say this doesn't work. The rebuttal to this is a politician usually Republican saying that this technique has saved lifes. Of course this is always without specifics or is easily debunked with a little research.
    Lets investigate and find out the truth and if it is found people broke the law let's prosecute them.
    So you think they do it just for fun?

    There is absolutely ZERO merit to the technique??
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #25
    Senior Member badbullgator's Avatar
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    I have no interest in prosecuteing anyone for doing anything to terrorist or those who wish us wiped from the face of the earth....right or wrong.

    Cotts why exactly do you feel so strongly about protecting and/or helping those who hate us and try at every turn to kill us?
    Views and opinions expressed herein by Badbullgator do not necessarily represent the policies or position of RTF. RTF and all of it's subsidiaries can not be held liable for the off centered humor and politically incorrect comments of the author.
    Corey Burke

  6. #26
    Senior Member Steve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cotts135 View Post
    This is issue is clear, cut at least to me. The facts are that waterboarding is torture.
    I disagree that waterboarding is torture. I don't think that, sleep deprivation, or similar can be classified in the same vein as breaking bones, and pulling out finger nails.

    I think anyone who puts on a uniform and goes to fight for his country should be exempt from this treatment. I don't extend the same to cowards who hide in the populace and kill women and children. Find out what we can from them, give them a military trial, and if deemed necessary execute them.

    To suggest that our people will be treated differently by the enemy is leftist fantasy land.
    Kelly, Weis, Willingham, & Davies

  7. #27
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    The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.
    Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”
    According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”





    If this story proves to be true, does anyone's view on waterboarding change? What if it tru;y DID prevent an airliner crashing into an LA skyscraper? Would your view change?

  8. #28
    Senior Member cotts135's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eildydar View Post
    I agree Cotts so why do you call up your man and tell him to release ALL the documents on the situation. I mean he was willing to release some of them why not release the rest so we can get some real transparency not this quasi transparency where we only release things that hurt the past administration or opposing party. I guess when members of your own party knew and signed off on the techniques then you would be reluctant too.
    I would love to see him release alll the relevant memos, no argument there. If people from Congress get caught up in this web whether Democrat or Republican they need to answer for their actions.

    .

    As far as the techniques go correct me if i am wrong but this isn't illegal because they are not US citizens or in this country. They are not in any part of any flagged army. So how exactly is this illegal by either our constitution or the geneva convention?
    The Hamdan v Rumsfeld Supreme Court ruling said that these detainees have the minimal protections under the Geneva Convention Common Article 3. The DoD on July 7 2006 said the prisoners would be afforded full protection under Common Article 3.
    Detainees rights under the Constitution were addressed in Boumediene v. Bush.

  9. #29
    Senior Member cotts135's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badbullgator View Post
    I have no interest in prosecuteing anyone for doing anything to terrorist or those who wish us wiped from the face of the earth....right or wrong.

    Cotts why exactly do you feel so strongly about protecting and/or helping those who hate us and try at every turn to kill us?
    Your mistaken with what the law says and what I feel about these people. Do you think you despise them anymore than me? Trust me you don't, however call me old fashion or what have you, but I believe strongly that we should uphold laws and agreements we are party to and if people make bad decisions then let them be held accountable

  10. #30
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bill View Post

    I can only hope there are enough remaining true Americans that understand how their freedoms have eroded into socialism, so they know what to return to. Not sure when this will happen. Probably take a generation before the sheeple wise up; certainly beyond the ages of the 60's flower children.

    UB
    Yup, that is a huge problem and the way things are going, there won't be enough true Americans left.

    Just look at how our demographics have shifted since WW2. The Democrats have financed the growth of poverty for too long and both parties have turned thier backs to the illegal invasion problem. I too fear that our heritage and culture will fade away. I don't think that those that love our heritage and those that despise our heritage, can live in harmony in thier New America.
    Last edited by Franco; 04-23-2009 at 07:21 PM.
    The Libertarian Party believes that all persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. A call for the repeal of the income tax, abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes. LP.org

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