Oboma's Morals Don't Trump Our Safety

[JDogger]

Last i checked the people in the armed service volunteered to do that job. Killing babies (which is what abortion is...period) and killing enemies to protect the greater good are entirely different things.

Oh really...? In my offensive cartoon, the generals take the babies, ( your sons and daughters, and the sons and daughters of the civilians caught up in the middle of their game) and kill them. It's called war. It's not really a game. I know you won't get it...but try...war, (collateral damage,=dead civilians), capital punishment, abortion all = death.
I'm not pro-abortion, who really is? I am anti-unwanted pregnancy though.
Long story short. How much do you want the state and the church infringing in your private life?
I question your concept of the greater good.

JD

[YardleyLabs]

This is so patronizing it's beyond pathetic, Jeff. Your condescension is second to none on this board.

I'm not sure what part of my comments you are referencing. However, I don't believe I've said anything that comes close to the arrogance of your own certain beliefs.

PUHLEESE!...You'd be happy eating road apples if your messiah asked you to.

I can assure you that if I ever have a "messiah", it will not be a politician. Your comment is just plain stupid (Excuse my bluntness, but you asked for it.).

Between you and Joe determining if conservatives don't experience any of the useful interrogation techniques, we can't comment on them, or be in favor of them, especially in wartime. Should we then conclude that you are in favor of homosexuality, because you've experienced that? Or you favor choice because you and your wife, or significant other, had an abortion, and the babies life was inconsequential to your 'beliefs'?

Actually, I never suggested that you needed to experience waterboarding to have an opinion about it. In fact, I said that my reactions to the idea of waterboarding were undoubtedly influenced by my own respiratory problems. I have never experienced it myself although at least one of the "liberals" commenting on it has. While I assume that your comments concerning my own sexuality and birth history were intended to be insulting (that is, suggesting that I must have had homosexual experiences or been party to aborting my own children), your comments simply sound ridiculous. I don't need to kill anyone to oppose murder, I don't need to rape anyone to oppose rape, etc. I remember well when abortion was illegal and what happened to many as a result. That experience is very much an integral part of why I believe government should stay out of reproductive decisions. The next time you get pregnant. I believe you should have the right to make your own decision on how you wish to handle it.

How do you "fall-on-the-sword" democrats look in the mirror. You may dispute us calling you un-American, but how do you go to church and not be considered a hypocrite?

I don't consider myself to be a "fall on your sword" kind of guy (I'm much more likely to use mine on someone else, if you haven;t already figured that out.), but I guess each of us goes (or doesn't go) to a church where we feel comfortable. That's the nice thing about freedom of religion. You don't have to go to any church but if you go, it can be any church you want.

If your an atheist, I can understand your beliefs in these areas. The same can be said for the Satanic cults. Certainly Hugh has illustrated that with his pathetically tasteless 'cartoon'. But your parties phoney morality will continue to play into the enemies hands, and your grandkids will be paying for your idiocy. The Jihad is gleefully clapping their hands, having you on their side.

UB

I'm not sure which of my opinions you are equating to Satanism. Personally, I don't believe in Satan and I can think of few more radical humanists than Jesus. My morality and my politics have everything to do with my grandchildren with whom I spent a wonderful evening tonight. Hopefully, before they are adults, we will be able to reverse at least some of the damage done by GWB and his cohorts. With respect to the "Jihad", I am not in favor of any religious fanatics -- be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or other. I do not trust anyone in government who believes they represent the will of God. That's as condescending as anyone can get.

[Bob Gutermuth]

Waterboarding isn't torture, having to filter all the mindless leftist bovine scatology on this thread is. The terrs would confess to shooting Abe Lincoln if someone would read them this stuff 24/7.

[YardleyLabs]

Waterboarding isn't torture, having to filter all the mindless leftist bovine scatology on this thread is. The terrs would confess to shooting Abe Lincoln if someone would read them this stuff 24/7.

And yet you read on.....

Are you generally into S&M, or is this the only venue? Certainly if you are it would explain why you do not classify as torture a form of pressure designed to use pain and fear of imminent death to elicit information. As has been noted before, waterboarding is used as part of the training for SEALs because it helps prepare soldiers to deal with the types of torture they might face if captured. The techniques were drawn from those used against us in situations that we called war crimes when they happened. Anything that is a war crime when done to us is also a war crime when done by us. You can't have it both ways.

[Jerry D Herring]

And yet you read on.....

Are you generally into S&M, or is this the only venue? Certainly if you are it would explain why you do not classify as torture a form of pressure designed to use pain and fear of imminent death to elicit information. As has been noted before, waterboarding is used as part of the training for SEALs because it helps prepare soldiers to deal with the types of torture they might face if captured. The techniques were drawn from those used against us in situations that we called war crimes when they happened. Anything that is a war crime when done to us is also a war crime when done by us. You can't have it both ways.

so tell me this then what is your take on beheading. is that torture because i can tell you that their aint no training in the world that can prepare you for that. we are arguing about something that we have no control over and do you think that we are going to know the whole truth about what goes on in gitmo. Hell no. why dont you ask john mccain what it was like in a POW camp in vietnam. ask him if he was waterboarded repeatedly for information. and if you think you have control over what happens in the DOD then you need to check yourself into the luny bin. im sorry i am for freedom of press and all that comes with it but i dont think that there are somethings that the public should really know, just for their own good. it causes more trouble than it is worth. just some reporter can win a pulitzer for tellin the world that some soldier in GITMO beat the hell out of a taliban leader with a phone book or "waterboarded" him which ended in the guy giving up half of his people. i mean that is what i am talking about. its my opinion that that guy gave up all his rights when he strapped on that bomb or dug that hole and put the IED in the ground. he had no respect for anyone elses life why should i have any for his.

[YardleyLabs]

so tell me this then what is your take on beheading. is that torture because i can tell you that their aint no training in the world that can prepare you for that. we are arguing about something that we have no control over and do you think that we are going to know the whole truth about what goes on in gitmo. Hell no. why dont you ask john mccain what it was like in a POW camp in vietnam. ask him if he was waterboarded repeatedly for information. and if you think you have control over what happens in the DOD then you need to check yourself into the luny bin. im sorry i am for freedom of press and all that comes with it but i dont think that there are somethings that the public should really know, just for their own good. it causes more trouble than it is worth. just some reporter can win a pulitzer for tellin the world that some soldier in GITMO beat the hell out of a taliban leader with a phone book or "waterboarded" him which ended in the guy giving up half of his people. i mean that is what i am talking about. its my opinion that that guy gave up all his rights when he strapped on that bomb or dug that hole and put the IED in the ground. he had no respect for anyone elses life why should i have any for his.

I don't see how anything I have said can be interpreted as approval for the barbaric practices that have been used by others. Are you suggesting that we should begin doing beheadings because they are used by Al Quaeda?

I disagree completely with your view that the government should classify information to protect the American public from itself. The only valid reason for classifying information is to avoid providing other countries and foreign groups with information that might damage our ability to defend ourselves as a nation. It should not be used to manipulate American opinion. Ultimately, the government is employed by "We, the People". When the government prevents us from learning the facts about its activities to protect itself from our reactions, it is time to fire the government. That is the reason for freedom of information laws. Being open with information obviously makes life more difficult for all those that prefer (like Cheney) to operate in secret. However, without openness, democracy is irrelevant.

[Raymond Little]

I don't see how anything I have said can be interpreted as approval for the barbaric practices that have been used by others. Are you suggesting that we should begin doing beheadings because they are used by Al Quaeda?

I disagree completely with your view that the government should classify information to protect the American public from itself. The only valid reason for classifying information is to avoid providing other countries and foreign groups with information that might damage our ability to defend ourselves as a nation. It should not be used to manipulate American opinion. Ultimately, the government is employed by "We, the People". When the government prevents us from learning the facts about its activities to protect itself from our reactions, it is time to fire the government. That is the reason for freedom of information laws. Being open with information obviously makes life more difficult for all those that prefer (like Cheney) to operate in secret. However, without openness, democracy is irrelevant.

Hey Jeff, then why did your "Lord" allow the release of this information then? All of this B&*% SH&% has been a political witch hunt from the beginning. It's been used to manipulate the SHEEPLE like you that drink the KOOL AID.


Shoot, Shovel & Shut Up

[Bob Gutermuth]

Actually Jeff you are the only one of the libs I don't have on my ignore list. At least you are willing to debate and not just call the right wing names for thier opinions.

[Jerry D Herring]

look i dont really care is it hurting you is it hurting me? not really i still sleep at night i still wake up in the morning get shot at and go back to bed. i mean some times you got to fight fire with fire. most people dont want to know what their gov is doing because honestly they dont give two shits. as long as their work is steady they dont have to pay too much in taxes and they can own their fire arms they really dont care. maybe thats just me but you know this is why i dont watch the news and i dont pay attention to politics i vote for the guy that my gut tells me is the right guy not because he is black or white purple yellow or orange. you know why i didnt vote for comrade obama. because his campaign seemed to run like a movie trailer. he seemed to me too much like a i want people to wipe my ass for me type campaign. i voted for McCain because that man has been where i am has done what i have done, and has survived one of the worst thing that can happen to you as a soldier. i voted for experience. Obama seems like a watchdog group. he is out to make the frm administration look bad. that is all politics seems to be about to me. "what can we do to make the last guy look like and idiot." that is politics. obama ran on a campaign of change huh. well if i read right i and i am pretty sure i did, didnt obama like hire back 3/4 of the frm clinton staff. i mean i thought it was a platform of change. doesnt change mean new people. i mean throw in some unknowns hell shake things up a little have a half dem half rep staff that way there is no majority its all equal but wait i forgot thats too complicated because everyone is stepping on the little guy (joe the plumber) cant forget that guy. you guys support this guy but what was the first cut he made the training budget for the army. so you know what that mean now my soldiers that come to me out of training i cant train why oh because my commander in chief cut my legs out from under me. oh and you know two years ago the bonus for reenlisting in the army was 22700 for 4 years, this year i only got 8500 for the same amount so tell me where this government supports joe because as i look at no one is more joe than us soldiers.

[K.Bullock]

I'm not sure what part of my comments you are referencing. However, I don't believe I've said anything that comes close to the arrogance of your own certain beliefs.


I can assure you that if I ever have a "messiah", it will not be a politician. Your comment is just plain stupid (Excuse my bluntness, but you asked for it.).

Actually, I never suggested that you needed to experience waterboarding to have an opinion about it. In fact, I said that my reactions to the idea of waterboarding were undoubtedly influenced by my own respiratory problems. I have never experienced it myself although at least one of the "liberals" commenting on it has. While I assume that your comments concerning my own sexuality and birth history were intended to be insulting (that is, suggesting that I must have had homosexual experiences or been party to aborting my own children), your comments simply sound ridiculous. I don't need to kill anyone to oppose murder, I don't need to rape anyone to oppose rape, etc. I remember well when abortion was illegal and what happened to many as a result. That experience is very much an integral part of why I believe government should stay out of reproductive decisions. The next time you get pregnant. I believe you should have the right to make your own decision on how you wish to handle it.

I don't consider myself to be a "fall on your sword" kind of guy (I'm much more likely to use mine on someone else, if you haven;t already figured that out.), but I guess each of us goes (or doesn't go) to a church where we feel comfortable. That's the nice thing about freedom of religion. You don't have to go to any church but if you go, it can be any church you want.

I'm not sure which of my opinions you are equating to Satanism. Personally, I don't believe in Satan and I can think of few more radical humanists than Jesus. My morality and my politics have everything to do with my grandchildren with whom I spent a wonderful evening tonight. Hopefully, before they are adults, we will be able to reverse at least some of the damage done by GWB and his cohorts. With respect to the "Jihad", I am not in favor of any religious fanatics -- be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or other. I do not trust anyone in government who believes they represent the will of God. That's as condescending as anyone can get.

Jeff,was Jesus a student of Greek and Roman literature, history and rhetoric or are you referring to Jesus as a humanist using the post Renaissance definition of Humanism that exalts human powers? God exalting humans ...hmmm ...sorry I cannot resist.

On topic, I would object to treating enemy soldiers in any way that would be abusive, a guy fighting for his country is just that a soldier fighting for his country in an honorable fashion inside the parameters of civilized warfare. He should be given the respect that he is due.


These guys that are being refered to as enemy combatants do not carry a flag, do not report to a commander, do not respect life or the rule of law and if water boarding is the worst thing that happens to these homicidal spoiled brats of the world the that is too bad in my opinion.

That said, I think it is nobler as a nation to restrain ourselves from injustice than allowing ourselves to be desensitized. It should be a big deal when we decide to use tactics like water boarding and I am glad my sons live in a country that, even if I disagree with them, people take exception to torturing of even our enemies.