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Hard Mouth

4K views 15 replies 13 participants last post by  Sally Berry 
#1 ·
Im new obviously by the limited posts so a little background first. I don't have the time nor money (unfortunately) at this point to be doing any trials or tests so my primary desire is to have a good upland meat dog. Im not into duck/goose hunting simply for lack of opportunity not desire to try it out.

I have purchased and watched/read Graham's books and dvds. We got to and through hold. I could get Gunner to sit and hold as long as I want, walking hold, have him sit in one spot and walk like 20-30yds away have him hold then come without any problems. Tried to continue FF and got stuck, as most newbies doing by themselves do I assume. He is absolutely crazy about bumpers and birds so I never had a problem with him reaching for a bumper. I would hold the bumper in front of his face and say fetch and apply pressure but as soon as I said fetch he was already going for the bumper the second I said fetch. Thus I got stuck and didn't know where to go from there. I don't know anyone training dogs close to me so its hard for me to get help.

Now to my question. Gunner has an extremely hard mouth when it comes to birds. I am able to occasionally shoot some pigeons in my backyard with the ole trusty pellet gun and use those for training but not on a consistent basis. I have also taken him quail hunting a couple times. If I am not right next to him when he retrieves the bird he pretty much destroys it bringing it back to me. I can get him to sit and hold the bird without any problems. However if I get him to try and move with or fetch the bird its pretty much dinner time for him. I have tried slapping him under the mouth, saying no etc without any avail.

What can I do to stop this? Is it a simple matter of him getting so excited to see birds? I have heard wrapping wire or barbed wire around the bird can help but I wasn't sure if thats the best remedy to teach him not to eat the birds.

Its really frustrating to me when he does it but I know its something that I am not doing right and not really his fault. Hopefully that is enough information to give an idea of my problem. Sorry for it being so long and I appreciate all the help.

Josh
 
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#2 ·
Im not sure about the program that you are using but the trainer that showed me how to ff my ylf told me to start the hold process with a thick leather glove on (i used a welding glove out of self defense) and then you can sort of guage the amount of pressure the dog exerts on the hand. however my dog didnt have a hard mouth from the start so im not sure how to remedy this through ff. though I have heard of people using frozen bird, their thought was that the dog would bite into the frozen bird and it would hurt their teeth much like you or I biting a popsicle. I have also heard of wrapping the birds in screen. not sure if this is any help and im sure you will get a few responses from folks who know more than I do.
jim.
Maybe for the fetch part you should use a dowl rod since it is an unfirmiliar object maybe the dog wont just be lunging to get it in his mouth. just a thought.
 
#3 ·
I trained 2 dogs to the conditioned retrieve as outlined in Robert Milner's book Retriever Training for the Duck Hunter. This was quite a while ago but it was great. It is supposed to prevent hard mouth. Maybe you should look into this. I followed the program exactly as described.
 
#4 ·
Well I would go back to the force fetch point.
And I would start to practise hold with things he would love to eat (like sausages ) I would just practise hold. If you are able to have him hold a sausage without eating it, than let him heel with the sausage. When he is able to hold a sausage and walk with it without chewing or eating it, IMO he should get better with birds.
But you have to be consistent with it.
 
#7 ·
FF is to produce proper holding. I would go back to that. Try using a dowel rod with wood pins in it this should help with pressure.
 
#8 ·
Well, this is like a re-occuring nightmare for me! I also have a Gunner, who was extremely hardmouthed too. Here's what we did. NO BIRDS at all for a while. I would do a medium toss with a 3" bumper and send him. As he was coming back, if he started to roll the bumper even a smidge, I'd repeat the "HERE" command and nick him on a low setting. I'm talking 15-20 minutes a day for a month while my trainer was out of state. The same boring exercise over and over really made a difference. Now he will start to bite hard from time to time on pigeons, but a "HEEL" or "HERE" command with a medium nick reminds him that he can't do that.

For your sake, I hope your Gunner is nothing like mine. I lost lots of sleep, and lots of "things" to that little jerk.
 
#10 ·
If I may offer a couple suggestions,(Very limited,experience)but I have one that has had mouth issues.I would not use pigeons,or quail.Pigeons amplified my dogs mouthing.I started using heeling stick corrections for mouthing after getting the Farmer/ Aycock dvd and it helped with my blockhead.Lots of repetition on hold,walking hold.I had to beat on him for awhile and not so much now.He cleaned up a lot,but it is something I have to be aware of every day,and I have to maintain a high standard constantly,and most likely will for the rest of his working days.

Hope you make progress Regards,

Bryan.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I have a dog who suffered from hard mouth. IMHO the worst problem of all. In fact, I would never keep a dog who displayed mouth problems again. One good note from all the worry was looking outside my square.

Now for my rambling reply.

Mouth problems are caused by conflict or has a genetic component or some what a dominant dog or poor introduction with live smaller birds. Another important factor is we think of retrieving as one behaviour, but in fact by the time retrieves it is a chained sequence.

I broke delivery down in a positive manner with food, initially with no retrieve (hand action of taking article/bird/bumper - how basic is that!!!). FF (negative reinforcement) will work also. Both need good timing. Barbed wire, metal inserts in bumpers/birds may work (but in a softer lower drive dog unwanted fall out may occur - refuse to pick up) including having the dog hold a bird till it nearly rots. Some dogs damage the bird when picking up, so the "soured" bumpers/birds work well. Some dogs chew on the way back. Faster recalls need to be worked on.

O MOUTH PROBLEMS!!!!!!

Some say it is important to know when the mouthing/chewing starts. Fill up a plastic bottle with stones. Let us know the result.

Like any other problem....catch the unwanted behaviour early.

Is my dog cured?. I think so...he throws the bumpers and birds at me. At trials he is keen to release, so overall I am happy.
 
#13 ·
As the breeder of my problematic dog....the mode of inheritance has worried me, especially as he has been used at stud.

I tell ya, if its not one genetic problem to worry about..its another.

Then we have the correct way to train each particular dog. My four competing dogs are so different. Makes life interesting.

To the original poster, I am not suggesting to rehome the dog. Problem dogs can be educational. The headaches we can do without!!
 
#15 ·
Here is part of an article i wrote many years ago, some parts you do not want to hear about but it has some good parts as well
Generally, if you do a solid job of the basic obedience, hard mouth will not be a problem. When the respect level is at the proper level between dog and trainer the dog should be willing to learn whatever is being taught.
For those of you who have an older dog that already has a hard mouth problem I"m going to give you some very good advice knowing that most of you will not take it. Send the dog to a professional! This problem can be complicated and it's best solved by someone who has experience.
For the majority of you who wish to disregard my advice I'll try to give you a couple of things to try, but if they do not get results, seek out a professional, please. Warning; do not hunt the dog until this problem is solved.
The number one rule is never to use any force while the dog is retrieving game birds; only use force on bumpers in a controlled environment. From here on out never take a bumper or bird from the dog; he has to give it to you. To accomplish that first, go back and repeat all the basics that you've taught the dog with the emphasis on strict discipline; obviously the respect level between you and your dog is not high enough. Also, you cannot correct this problem if the dog has not been made to pick up on command. (forced fetched) From here on the dog must give up the bumper on command and the command I use is "drop". If he refuses to surrender the bumper whack him with a wiffle bat and repeat the command drop. Don't get in a tug-of-war; believe me you'll lose in the long run. If he still refuses and backs away, release the bumper and let him have it temporarily. Whack him a few more times with the Wiffle bat then put your hand on the bumper and say drop. If the dog does not respond, you're in over your head, so send him to a professional.
hope this helps
good luck
GG
 
#16 ·
"We got to and through hold. I could get Gunner to sit and hold as long as I want, walking hold, have him sit in one spot and walk like 20-30yds away have him hold then come without any problems. Tried to continue FF and got stuck, as most newbies doing by themselves do I assume. He is absolutely crazy about bumpers and birds so I never had a problem with him reaching for a bumper. I would hold the bumper in front of his face and say fetch and apply pressure but as soon as I said fetch he was already going for the bumper the second I said fetch. Thus I got stuck and didn't know where to go from there."

What you said leads me to believe you have not truly gotten thru to your dog on force fetch. Since he is already going for the bumper when you pinch you may not have applied enough pressure or maybe your timing is off. It sounds like he is retrieving for himself and not because he understands that this is his job and he must do it on command. He may be mouthing out of young dog excitement or he may be anxious about corrections or "verbal nagging" on coming, heeling, holding, etc. and not really understand what is expected.

You might try you local library to see if you can find William Kohler's "Open Obedience Traning for Ring, Home and Field" (an oldie but goodie!) He breaks down the force fetch into easy to manage pieces. You may have to do enough repetitions to bore your dog or set up distractions so that he will fail to retrieve promptly on command and thus better understand the ear pinch as a correction. Reviewing force fetch may be the first step to fixing the mouth problems.

Sally Berry
Northfield Labradors
Fairbanks, AK.
 
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