Postmodernism...

[K.Bullock]

Kieth
That was very well spoken.


I was just thinking what K bulluck said about the trinity.the diety of christ and something else I can't remember and if I try to hit the back button it will erase my post so I wont go back to look at it.
But in essence he mentioned that all christians had that in common.

Well Im someone people would classify as christen . Through research I have traced the many different origins of the 3 in 1 God and I believe that JC was the son of God not God himself.
Would that make me a false christian.

It was by coincidence that I posted Isaiah 43 :7 but thinking about it now if that verse was expounded on it would totally shake and crumble the foundation of ancient christianity.

Pete

I would buy your book Pete. I buy a lot of books that nobody else buys though lol !

The problem with expounding on one verse or expositing one passage is that it leaves out the main idea. I can string several verses together to make them say anything I want. And actually I see it done quite often. I am sure I could take a speech written by MLK and make it appear that he supported segregation if I did not pay attention to the major themes and substance of his speech.

[YardleyLabs]

I believe that truth in its very condensed essence is the self expression of God. God chose to reveal Himself to man in several different ways...one of which is His written word, which is called the word of truth. Another is through nature and the heavens. As such, truth is theological.

Further, truth is ontological...the way things really are. Reality is the exact order of God expressed via His divine sovereign will. Any search for truth that sets aside God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word is spurious. Any search for truth that imposes man's wisdom over God's word is likewise spurious. Any search for truth without the inclusion of God Himself as the source or objective is foolish since God alone is the source and embodiment of truth.

Like Paul said in Romans...Let God be true and every man a liar!

Jesus Himself described intellectually driven false religious leaders as whitewashed tombs...beautiful on the outside but full of deadmen's bones and uncleanness on the inside. Vain attempts at piety are a mere whitewashing of the hideous message postmodernism spews Jeff...nothing more.





.

Keith, I've been accused of many things, but never "Vain attempts at piety". I have never claimed piety of any sort. The Compact Oxford English Dictionary refers to postmodernism as "a style and concept in the arts characterized by distrust of theories and ideologies and by the drawing of attention to conventions." Sounds pretty good to me.

[Keith Farmer]

I believe that JC was the son of God not God himself.
Would that make me a false christian.

Pete,
Your view is classic Arianism.

That line of thought was exactly what the Nicene creed challenged (thanks to the effort of one man who earnestly contended for the faith as urged by Jude in his self titled epistle):

From Wikipedia (Church of England common worship version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...in_current_use )

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Live,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.


Does it make you a "false Christian"? That is between you and God.

I do say, however, that the doctrine you mentioned (Arianism) is heresy and apostate in its foundation. Jude declared this:

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4 NASB 1995)



.

[Keith Farmer]

Keith, I've been accused of many things, but never "Vain attempts at piety". I have never claimed piety of any sort

Jeff,

I was not specifically aiming that at you. Rather, I was referring to postmodernistic views/language that use but twist biblical doctrine.



.

[Keith Farmer]

The Compact Oxford English Dictionary refers to postmodernism as "a style and concept in the arts characterized by distrust of theories and ideologies

On what ground is the distrust based? If, for example, it is based on scriptural truths (as was exemplified by the Bereans) then I agree. If the foundation is humanistic and self serving (like most postmodernistic thought is) then I disagree. In fact, we are urged to do that very thing in 1 John 4:1: "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (NASB)



.

[Franco]

Jeff,

Rather, I was referring to postmodernistic views/language that use but twist biblical doctrine.



.

There is nothing new about organized religions all over the world adding thier TWIST in creating thier own identity. Those twist is what makes them different and creates their unique selling proposition. One thing that has not changed over the last 5,000 years is that religion is big business and largely exsist to selfserve the higher members of that sect. Those twist are needed to keep the flock in line for without the flock they have no income.

Beware of those religions that are low on spirituality and high on judgement!

And, why are today's new phenom, the Mega-Chruch so popular?

http://www.orgsites.com/ca/rusellonline/_pgg10.php3

[Keith Farmer]

There is nothing new about organized religions all over the world adding thier TWIST in creating thier own identity.

Yeah Booty, but we are not discussing world religions. We are specifically discussing Christianity as it is being distorted by postmodernism.

Christianity, by definition, is monothesitic and is based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. The record of His life and teachings are first prophesied then actually recorded in what is known as the Old Testament and New Testament respectively.

A Christian, by definition, is someone who adheres to the teachings of Jesus Himself and the apostles who were set apart by God for their service. So claiming to be Christian but denying Christ is a contradiction in terms is it not?


.

[Franco]

So claiming to be Christian but denying Christ is a contradiction in terms is it not?


.

Yes it is!

And, the various Christian sects are the biggest of businesses. More so than the more spiritual religions such as in Buddism and Hinduism.

Then, we have Islam and as far as I can tell, they like to deal in blood. Both Islam and most Christian religions deal in fear and judgement.

[Pete]

Actually Keith it was Constantine who came up with the Nicene creed he was of Pagan origin and he tried to merge Christians with pagans to form a one world church. we know it today as the catholic church which is very trinitarian . And I grew up in that faith and the priest told me when I asked him to explain the trinity that I would have to take it on faith. Well know where in the word is the word trinity and there are only a dozen or so unclear verses that may indicate JC was God and thousands of others that indicate differently.
By the way if JC was God himself we would not be redeemed.
It would take a 100 percent man to redeem man. JC is refered to the second Adam. Was Adam God?
The word is logical.
religion is illogical.
Why did it take 4000 years from the time of the fall for God to send the redeemer?
It really is quite easy to crumble theories based on the trinity.
Because most trinitarians take things on faith they have been brought up believing in this constantine political doctrine.

It was easy to merge cristians and pagans because pagans and greeks both worshipped gods in group of 3's

There is nothing arian about what I believe. hell I don't even know what arian means

However I have earnestly studuied the word for 30 years without being influenced by religious belief. I have studied words,customs and manners,hebrew idiums,figures of speech, and have let the chips fall where the be.

Her is an example. If you go to the greek interlinear and look up I Tim 3:16 you will notive that the word God is used when refering being made flesh.
However at the bottom of the page you will notice 11 scolars interpreted it the word "which" because after looking at the old piece of goat skin that they translated this word the saw a definate HOS which means "which" "HO" means "God". The word HO means God. One of the scholars used his great trinitarian backround to over ride the other 11 scholars.

Now read it using the word Which.
The bible is littered with this stuff.
Here is a verse for ya.
I corinthians 15 :45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

refering to ole JC.

Pete

[Keith Farmer]

Actually Keith it was Constantine who came up with the Nicene creed

Actually, Constantine was Emporer but later refuted the creed against Arianism and was actually baptised by an Arian Bishop. The person who fought earnestly for the faith once and for all handed down to the saints (Christians) was Athanasius of Alexandria. In fact, his creed differed from the Nicene creed in that it pronounced anathemas on anyone who disagreed with the creed. The crux of his work was the defense of the Trinity...one God expressed in three persons.

By the way if JC was God himself we would not be redeemed.

From where do you get that?

Why did it take 4000 years from the time of the fall for God to send the redeemer?

I don't know Pete. God is certainly long suffering and patient. His efforts at allowing mankind to try and work out salvation through keeping religious order (the law) proved that mankind was not capable of self-salvation...man could not save himself.

And I grew up in that faith and the priest told me when I asked him to explain the trinity that I would have to take it on faith.

A religion tainted with paganism is the last source I would cite for evidence against the trinity.

Well know where in the word is the word trinity

Perhaps. But words have meaning Pete. For example, the text below is not ambiguous...three is the same as trinity, triune, etc.

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one (1 John 5:7 KJV)

There is nothing arian about what I believe.

You should know what you believe Pete. However, your doctrinal ideology is most certainly derived from the heresy taught by Arius. Here is a wikipedia link to explain who he was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius In short, he was declared a heretic, was exonerated, then declared a heretic again after his death. Funny thing about his death; after Arius was exonerated by Constantine Athanasius, who subsequently refused to allow Arius inclusion in the communion (and was exiled as the result), prayed that God would intervene before allowing this heretic to gain a foothold in the church. The day before he was to take part in communion he (Arius) dropped dead suddenly (interesting if nothing else huh?) Here is the story as reported by Socrates Scholasticus (source Wikipedia):

It was then Saturday, and... going out of the imperial palace, attended by a crowd of Eusebian [Eusebius of Nicomedia is meant] partisans like guards, he [Arius] paraded proudly through the midst of the city, attracting the notice of all the people. As he approached the place called Constantine's Forum, where the column of porphyry is erected, a terror arising from the remorse of conscience seized Arius, and with the terror a violent relaxation of the bowels: he therefore enquired whether there was a convenient place near, and being directed to the back of Constantine's Forum, he hastened thither. Soon after a faintness came over him, and together with the evacuations his bowels protruded, followed by a copious hemorrhage, and the descent of the smaller intestines: moreover portions of his spleen and liver were brought off in the effusion of blood, so that he almost immediately died. The scene of this catastrophe still is shown at Constantinople, as I have said, behind the shambles in the colonnade: and by persons going by pointing the finger at the place, there is a perpetual remembrance preserved of this extraordinary kind of death.

As for the rest Pete I believe scripture is clear about the doctrine of God being expressed in three persons. I believe that the apostles and subsequent church leaders supported (sometimes at their own peril) the same doctrine of the Trinity.


.