Postmodernism...

[twall]

Keith,

Back to the original topic. I agree with Colson in general. But, I think his 'long search' for truth smacks of postmodernism. Truth is simple. Truth is what God says it is.

Sola scriptura, sola gratia, sole fide, solus Christus, sole Deo gloria.

Tom

[Cody Covey]

they debated about words written by people 50 years after Jesus was crucified (in some cases more) more than 300 years after the words were written. How are those in a council going to be setting the doctrine as the one and only way. Maybe they got it wrong. They were like you said debating. They weren't speaking with God or anyone else you may find to be divine. I was always led to believe that they were one in purpose not in being. If i go to hell because of that than so be it i suppose but i hope not.

[YardleyLabs]

Happily, my heritage stems from Unitarians who lost the vote that established the Niacene Creed. In a context where 1700 synods participated in discussions under the auspices of a pagan emperor whose sole concern was the establishment of a religion that would make governance of the empire stronger, I find it hard to take seriously any claims that the result was any more than a political compromise. If disagreeing with such a compromise is heresy, than I am a proud heretic. My own brand of heresy was unitarianism, not arianism. Personally, however, I do not claim to be a theist at all. My beliefs are fundamentally humanist. I welcome the humanist contributions made by most religions, but reject the notion that any one can claim to represent a special truth.

You denounce (most?) postmodernism as "humanistic and self serving", implying that the two go hand in hand. In my mind, humanism is self serving only in the broadest communal sense of serving humanity, not the individual. Organized religion, however, seems to spend the bulk of its energies supporting its own institutions which form a much narrower audience.

[Pete]

Keith
I totally understand where you are comming from.
But the bible is an eastern book. There are cultural and customary meanings behind some of the verses you gave.
Old idiums which are never taught.

I am my father are one ,,,,of of the top of my head I believe the word one is the word heis , I should look it up. But it is in the nueter and means unity of purpose. The same word is used to describe my wife and I being one flesh.

JC was Gods word in the flesh just as the stars are gods word in the heavans and the bible is Gods word in writting.

JC always did his fathers will ,,he did 100 mpercent of his written word,,the written word,JC and the stars all present the heart of God.


You mentioned the father ,,the word and the holy ghost,,,some of these words do not appear in earlier texts.

In heavan and in earth was added

The early manuscripts before around 6th century do not contain these words
They first appeared in latin copies and then they were added to the english. ft note bruce metzner texual commentary to the greek new testiment page 716 and 717

I believe the earliest manuscripts read as follows.
"For there are 3 that bear record,,the spirit,,thewater,,and the blood and these 3 agree in one."

they were ovious attemps by those scribes to intentionally lean the translation to a 3 in 1 god. The theology of Irenaeus and Tertullian were the first know writers to use the word trinity

I would imagine that the corruption of ! john 5 7 and 8 had not yet occured by the 4th century because they only had one scripture toutilize for there theory and that is Mathew 28 19. This is when water baptism was in,,,,you know ,,I baptise you in the name of the father and the son and holy ghost.

There are also only 2 manuscripts which show this, Also there was a guy namedEusebias who quoted in the early part of the 4th century and he never used trinitarian words ,,,rather he sited from scripture "in my name"

There are a ton of old research books on this stuff. Any way peple are falling asleep.

The trinity as far as christianity is concerned started in 325 with the nicene .
Encyclopedia bricannica"
The council of Niceamet on may 20 325 Constantine himself presiding and actively guidig the discussion and personally proposed ( no doubt on Ossius prompting) the crucial formula expressing the relation of christ to God in the creed issued by the council of one substance with the father Over awed by the emporor,the bishops with 2 exceptionsonly signed the creed many of them against their inclination.

As long as constantine lived no one challenged him openly but the expected concord did not follow. end quote


By 381 ad a second ecumental council met in constantanople. Theyt adopted a new nicene creed. stating jesus crist was god.
Sorry for the long wind
Hope this helps

Pete

[Keith Farmer]

Organized religion, however, seems to spend the bulk of its energies supporting its own institutions which form a much narrower audience.

Religions in general all teach that man has to do something to earn some sort of salvation or pass to the next life...that is with the exception of Christianity. I have detailed this before so I digress.

[Franco]

Oh the drama...

Booty, it may be Karma man; might want to leave it be.


.

As promised, I'm back!

First off, Karma is a Hindu thang.



I view Christianity and Islam similar in their lack of real spirituallity and heavy on judgement. Do such and such and go to heaven. The Muslims throw in the added perks of virgins to party with in heaven. Don’t do this and go to hell for eternity. Very weak and obviously the creation of ancient man’s mentallity. By the way, I view Heaven and Hell as a control thing by both middleeastern religions, Christianity and Islam. They get their flocks to obey by threatening with damnation.

Hinduism lacks an official system of belief. Instead, focuses on life’s experiences which many in the west view as pagan because of Hinduism’s abstract and metaphysical ideas. The basic priniples which drives them are; Devotion to life, what is right, knowledge and discipline. More spiritual than judgemental. Sensual pleasure is good unlike the two middleeastern religions, Christianity and Islam

The Budhist, like the Hindus transend religious dogmas and theology in search for real and more meaningful truths of life.
The Budhist basic beleifs;
The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances."

And No, the devil didn't make me write this!

[Keith Farmer]

But the bible is an eastern book

Pete,

That is one of the methods used by the Catholic church to keep the written word out of the hands of common people...that being that God's Word is not knowable unless someone enlightened expounds upon its truths.

I believe God has given us a preserved word of truth. I believe the Holy Spirit is our Parakletos who guides us in the truth. I believe that God illuminates His Word to His people via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit bears witness with each Christian's spirit in an effort to maintain truth.

Having said all of that...if God's word is so messed up that we cannot take it at face value then we should toss our bibles in the trash...I for one do not believe that.

Jesus said you are either for Me or against Me. There is no middle ground where Jesus is concerned. You said you are a Christian Pete. By what definition are you going by if you deny the Lordship of Jesus? To what tenets of the faith of Christianity are you adhering?

Paul sums up my view precisley: Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.(Philippians 2: 9-11)

Notice that nothing and nobody is exempt from bowing to the Lordship of Jesus in the future. Everyone and everything will bow to His Lordship...



.

[Keith Farmer]

First off, Karma is a Hindu thang.

I know, thought you would like that...

Do such and such and go to heaven.

That is not what Christianity teaches. Apostates may have perverted the Gospel to include works but works are not part of the fundamental Christian doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.



.

[YardleyLabs]

I know, thought you would like that...






That is not what Christianity teaches. Apostates may have perverted the Gospel to include works but works are not part of the fundamental Christian doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.



.

So instead we say worship me and believe in me and I will reward you with heaven. That's about as transactional as things can get.

[Franco]

Apostates may have perverted the Gospel to include works but works are not part of the fundamental Christian doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.



.

Huh? Are you saying that the Gospel doesn't preach eternal salvation through faith in Jesus?