Postmodernism...

[Keith Farmer]

Huh? Are you saying that the Gospel doesn't preach eternal salvation through faith in Jesus?

Uh...where did you get that from?

I said that works are not part of the Christian doctrine of...salvation by grace alone (which is from God), through faith alone (faith is also a gift from God...not something we have of our own that we just decide to exercise), in Jesus alone (God incarnate...the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us who died for us).

That is to say that salvation is not based on any works that can be done by man. Rather, salvation is the free gift of God (see above). In fact, God says that our righteousness (us at our best doing the best things we can possibly do) is like filthy rags (do I need to explain what that means?) to Him.

So, unlike other world religions, Christianity is 100% based on what God has done, is doing, and will do for us...it is that way so no one can boast about doing such and such...its all about God Booty!



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[K.Bullock]

I know, thought you would like that...






That is not what Christianity teaches. Apostates may have perverted the Gospel to include works but works are not part of the fundamental Christian doctrine of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus alone.



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That sounds like superlapsarian Calvinism, it imply's that the elect are saved from God's decree and nothing more.
Are they the only ones that are getting it right and everyone else a post-modern in your mind? Apostate is a big word.

[Keith Farmer]

That sounds like superlapsarian Calvinism, it imply's that the elect are saved from God's decree and nothing more.
Are they the only ones that are getting it right and everyone else a post-modern in your mind?

Ken,

Not sure what you are driving at but my intent is aimed at apostates such as Judaizers who injected works into grace alone through faith alone, in Jesus alone salvation. Read the book of Galations...Paul addresses this very topic in detail. If you have any questions about my position regarding the plan of salvation it is summed up pretty well in that book. Further, this is my foundational stance about salvation:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.(Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV)

In terms of "everyone else" being post-modern...only the postmodernists are postmodern Ken...that is simple enough is it not?



Jeff,

To answer your querry about transactional salvation let me say this. Christianity teaches that one does not get saved by "worshipping me" and thereby getting the reward of heaven (that would be works based salvation). In my case, my salvation experience preceded my worship of God. That is to say that my worship of Jesus as my Saviour and Lord began after I surrendered my life to His call.

As such, worship can be said to be an extension of the salvation experience but is by no means a causal agent of salvation.

Hope that clears up any superlapsarian Calvinism ideas and the works based Christianity myth.

I am done...headed in with the girls.


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[K.Bullock]

Huh? Are you saying that the Gospel doesn't preach eternal salvation through faith in Jesus?

He is referring to the U in T.U.L.I.P. unconditional election, it is the belief that if you are lucky enough to be one of the elect children of God then you will be saved no matter what. You have absolutely no choice in the matter, God's grace will draw you to him no matter what you do.To me it is kind of a conceited sort of universalism for a minority of God's creation.

It is noteworthy that Calvin had never heard of Tulip and his writings The Institutes of the Christian Religion are much kinder to other Christians than the hyper Calvinism that has claimed his name. The TULIP doctrine was developed at the Synod of Dort in the 1600's in response to the Remonstrants , followers of reformation theologian James Arminius who developed the 5 points of Arminianism that included doctrine that we have a choice whether to follow God or not. TULIP was another doctrine developed more out of politics and the desire for control, there were no followers of James Arminius present at the synod of Dort because they were jailed or driven out by the then dominant Calvinists. Later though after the Synod, Arminius followers were allowed back into the "fold" so to the speak.

To read the writings of James Arminius and John Calvin you wouldn't think that they would be in conflict. Yet somehow someone always seems to find a way. Calvinism has been a minority voice in Christendom for some time. It is enjoying a resurgence however mainly due to ...strangely enough the post-modern emergent church and pastors like Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Seattle that have done well at bringing back a sort of Neo- Calvinism that is actually closer to Reformation Arminianism than true Calvinism. The unfortunate side result of that is a resurgence of Dort style hyper-Calvinism as well.

Booty you may already know this, but that does not take away from my enjoyment of writing it.

[Franco]

He is referring to the U in T.U.L.I.P. unconditional election, it is the belief that if you are lucky enough to be one of the elect children of God then you will be saved no matter what. You have absolutely no choice in the matter, God's grace will draw you to him no matter what you do.To me it is kind of a conceited sort of universalism for a minority of God's creation.

It is noteworthy that Calvin had never heard of Tulip and his writings The Institutes of the Christian Religion are much kinder to other Christians than the hyper Calvinism that has claimed his name. The TULIP doctrine was developed at the Synod of Dort in the 1600's in response to the Remonstrants , followers of reformation theologian James Arminius who developed the 5 points of Arminianism that included doctrine that we have a choice whether to follow God or not. TULIP was another doctrine developed more out of politics and the desire for control, there were no followers of James Arminius present at the synod of Dort because they were jailed or driven out by the then dominant Calvinists. Later though after the Synod, Arminius followers were allowed back into the "fold" so to the speak.

To read the writings of James Arminius and John Calvin you wouldn't think that they would be in conflict. Yet somehow someone always seems to find a way. Calvinism has been a minority voice in Christendom for some time. It is enjoying a resurgence however mainly due to ...strangely enough the post-modern emergent church and pastors like Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Seattle that have done well at bringing back a sort of Neo- Calvinism that is actually closer to Reformation Arminianism than true Calvinism. The unfortunate side result of that is a resurgence of Dort style hyper-Calvinism as well.

Booty you may already know this, but that does not take away from my enjoyment of writing it.

Well, thanks for the education.

I'm not familiar with the Protestant side of Christianity, just too many different sects and lots of politics.

So, if salvation is predetermined, than it is no different than what the Muslim's beleive in that it "is written"? One's destiny that is.

The similarities between Islam and perticularly what I am reading of the Protestant side of Christianity are astounding. Probably has to do with the orgins being from the same region.

I have a question; So, what is the point of salvation if one fate is predetermined?

[K.Bullock]

Well, thanks for the education.

I've not familiar with the Protestant side of Christianity, just too many different sects and lots of politics.

So, if salvation is predetermined, than it is no different than what the Muslim's beleive in that it "is written"? One's destiny that is.

The similarities between Islam and perticularly what I am reading of the Protestant side of Christianity are astounding. Probably has to do with the orgins being from the same region.

Not only that but if it is predetermined ....what is the point of Jesus suffering and dieing for a job that is already done?


I disagree though that protestantism is similar to Islam. They do have similar origins,that is where the similarities end though. The major themes couldn't be more different.

[Franco]

Not only that but if it is predetermined ....what is the point of Jesus suffering and dieing for a job that is already done?


I disagree though that protestantism is similar to Islam. They do have similar origins,that is where the similarities end though. The major themes couldn't be more different.

Well, they both promise virgins and vestial virgins in the afterlife.
If I thought that was real, I would repent and wouldn't insist on virgins. In fact, a little experience would be more to my liking.

I've got to say that I prefer the simplicity and realness of Hinduism. Not that I am one but, thier material is profound in reading and much easier for a mere lost soul like me to relate to.

I don't believe in an afterlife and the finality of one's exsistence is too difficult for many to accept.

[K.Bullock]

[QUOTE=Mr Booty;451497]

Well, they both promise virgins and vestial virgins in the afterlife.
If I thought that was real, I would repent and wouldn't insist on virgins. In fact, a little experience would be more to my liking.

Then Ghandi's your man ..he didn't believe in waiting he took a whole gaggle to bed with him.

I've got to say that I prefer the simplicity and realness of Hinduism. Not that I am one but, thier material is profound in reading and much easier for a mere lost soul like me to relate to.

I like C.S. Lewis Mere Christianity when I am looking for profound, as well as his other books.

I don't believe in an afterlife and the finality of one's exsistence is too difficult for many to accept

I think that is the reason for things like stone henge and pyramids, we inherently have a fear of finality. It begs the question though, how is that we have knowledge of our own mortality?

[Pete]

[QUOTE][/Jesus said you are either for Me or against Me. There is no middle ground where Jesus is concerned. You said you are a Christian Pete. By what definition are you going by if you deny the Lordship of Jesus? To what tenets of the faith of Christianity are you adhering?

QUOTE]]

keith I never denied JC as my lord and savior
I denied him as God almighty maker of heaven and earth.

Adam fell yet he was made a perfect man. Jc had the potential of screwing up . Why do you think satin tempted him for 40 days and nights. He offered him all the kingdoms of the world he JC would bow down and worship him. Also God cannot be tempted yet JC was tempted.
Yes he had the potential to put man in an unreedemable state. God held off 4000years looking for the right woman he knew would raise him in the nurture of the lord. There is so much more to this than what meets the eye.
The more you study the more it builds. Allthe libraries in the worl;d could never hold the info packed into that 2 inch book.

Its silly to think the king james version is the identical word that was original given. Most things are really close and exact but much also needs to be worked.
Just the translation from king james english to american english is a study in itself. I can spit out a list of words if taken from the king james english and used in modern day english would totaly change the word of God.

Its no wonder people are confused they read the bible and think up their own interpretation.
Peter 1 20 talks about that.

Pete

[Pete]

Just thinking here.
If JC is the son of God and Gods children are his sons and daughters then JC would be my brother and if he is my brother then I will get everthing he gets wala

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Also if we will be like him then we will be like gods

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

But thats blashemy isn't it. That what satin told Eve which was the original lie Ye shall be as gods

So following the logic JC can't be God almighty rather Gods son. There is a ton of this stuff. Its probably why I dig it so much.

If you follow the trinity through logically youl'l end up in a jam as far as accuracy goes. And all you'll have is what you believe. I only believe what I have worked.
But to go back to your insuation that JC is not my savior on the contrary he is my living lord and savior,hero,,if it wasn't for his remarkable tightness with God we would all be in the soup.

The word of God in greek is logos and is the root word for logic. A perfect mathematical equation . God invented physics too.
Anyway most are yawning by now ,,I thought I would give you my angle.
Pete

I'm not cutting anyones beliefs as a matter of fact great people are often trinitarians you included,,,but my only concern is what is Gods heart and will for us. ITIM 2 15 STUDY TO SHOW THYSELF APPROVED A WORKMAN OF THE WORD THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED. and so and so.. oops cap lock. not yelling


Pete