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Thread: Boycott Of GM Called

  1. #41
    Senior Member duk4me's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    I'm sure you're right. I'm guessing nearly all of us would get along famously in person. I'd happily throw back a frosty one with you. Or a glass of chardonnay with Yardley. Or spark a big fat blunt of hippy hemp with Jdogger.
    Can I join that party? I'll be bar beoch and fat blunt roller. I'll even sit quietly and listen cause that would be one hell of a conversation.
    I have learned I need these dogs much more than they need me. Tim Bockmon

  2. #42
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duk4me View Post
    Can I join that party? I'll be bar beoch and fat blunt roller. I'll even sit quietly and listen cause that would be one hell of a conversation.
    Will there be any Jack Daniels??

    Then this scrawney little old man would like to join in the imbibing!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  3. #43
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Hey, everybody's welcome. It looks like Jdogger might have to dust off his 8 hitter hookah he picked up in Amsterdam back in '68.

  4. #44
    Senior Member signgirl's Avatar
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    ....getting back to the original thread...Rush did not call for a boycott, does not believe in boycotts and bought 2 Suburbans in the past 2 weeks. GM is a major sponsor of his show...maybe the new 'owners' will pull their advertising based on who he is but he has consistently supported Union Workers..just not the the Union Bosses .
    Medie Robinson
    Kilbride, Ontario

    I Hear and I Forget...I See and I Remember...I Do and I Understand

  5. #45
    Senior Member JDogger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by signgirl View Post
    ....getting back to the original thread...Rush did not call for a boycott, does not believe in boycotts and bought 2 Suburbans in the past 2 weeks. GM is a major sponsor of his show...maybe the new 'owners' will pull their advertising based on who he is but he has consistently supported Union Workers..just not the the Union Bosses .
    Signgirl, this thread has obiously gone south. There's only so much that can be said about Rush.
    I'm sure you'd be welcome at the party too, though. Watcha goin' bring?

    JD
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  6. #46
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    The best seat at the party would be between JDogger and Road Kill!
    Just have to find my darkest lens sunglasses.
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

  7. #47
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    The best seat at the party would be between JDogger and Road Kill!
    Just have to find my darkest lens sunglasses.

    Probably be pretty good entertainment.
    You could tell your Grand Kids!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  8. #48
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    The best seat at the party would be between JDogger and Road Kill!
    Just have to find my darkest lens sunglasses.
    I have decided to auction that seat off!!

    I got $5, can I get $10??
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by honker88 View Post
    I'm not trying to belittle them at all. I am just pointing out that their wages and benefits are out of line with the rest of the manufacturing world. It is not sustainable.
    For some reason you seem to think U.S. workers need to accept lower wages to match what is going on in the rest of the world. You need to remember, manufacturing, for the most part, has gone to less developed countries with very low standards of living. These jobs help elevates the standard of living in those countries, which is good. However, for decades, the U.S. has enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world. One reason for that is U.S. workers were offered good wages and benefits. They provided economic stability and opportunities to improve ones standard of living. Now, you think Americans should lower their standard of living to meet those of less developed nations. I don’t agree with that.

    Somehow, we have been fooled into believing we must participate in the “global” economy, even if it works to our detriment. We don’t have to. Just look at the Japanese. They are masters of participating in the global economy while protecting their own markets. Before the current world wide economic slow down, the Japanese sold approximately 15 million cars world wide. At the same time, they have kept sales of non-Japanese cars to around 10k units (that includes all U.S., European, and Korean models) in Japan. Ninety five percent of all cars sold in Japan are Japanese cars. Through taxes and tariffs, they have made it almost impossible for the average Japanese citizen to buy a non-Japanese car. The car market in Japan is closed to imports. My point is, it’s okay to participate in the global economy, but take care of home first!

    Quote Originally Posted by honker88 View Post
    That's probably true, but that's capitolism. That is what got this great nation to where we are today. If you can't compete, you can't survive. Unfortunately that's true even if the competition is unfair.
    You need to do a little more reading. Capitalism is what made this country wealthy. But, what made this country great was that everyone had a chance to get a piece of the pie. Of course, some people got a bigger piece than others, but everyone had a chance to get a piece. Unfair competition is not the type of capitalism that made this country great. Unfair competition hurts the economy in the long run. That is why there are laws that make sure the competition remains as fair as possible (i.e. anti-trust laws, fair trade laws, copyright, and trademark laws).

    Quote Originally Posted by honker88 View Post
    Above you asked, "What makes the wages and benefits the UAW negotiated artificially high?" You just made one of my points and answered your own question! Wages work the same way as the prices we pay for various things.
    The UAW was being paid these types of wages and benefits long before there was a “global” market. Now that manufacturing is leaving the U.S., or going to lower income states in the U.S. where wages are lower, you think the UAW’s wages are excessive. Did it ever occur to you that these other workers might be underpaid?

    In the 1960s, the auto companies and the UAW were hailed as good corporate citizens for providing such a good standard of living for their people. What they were being paid benefitted the entire economy. Now, they are being ridiculed for it. You may see auto workers’ pay and benefits as excessive, but some guy in China making $1/hour would probably see the money you make as excessive. So, why don’t you volunteer to give up a portion of your income to get closer to what they’re making in China? It would certainly make your company more competitive and profitable. It’s always easier to tell someone else what they should be willing to give up when you are not being forced to give up anything.


    Quote Originally Posted by honker88 View Post
    You couldn't be any more wrong about passing on cost savings. What you said doesn't make much sense. That is the way capitalism works. Let's say Ford finds a way to produce it's vehicles at a cost that is 10% less than what it currently cost them. You don't think they are going to lower the cost to the customer? They may not pass the entire 10% savings on to the customer, but a chunk of the savings will make it to the customer. Think about it. That lower price will give them a huge competitive advantage. It will force the competition to sharpen their pencils and figure out how they can compete with Ford.
    It makes perfect sense when you understand the automotive business. In your scenario, Ford would probably not lower its prices. I have been around the automobile business a long time, and that is not how it works. If Ford’s pricing on that model was already competitive in that segment, they would not lower the price to gain a competitive advantage, they would take profit. Lowering the price significantly will not necessarily translate into a significant increase in sales. In addition, significantly lowering the price, devalues all cars in that segment. This will not be the last model Ford will want to sell in this market segment. The next car they introduce may not have that cost advantage over the competition, so they could end up pricing themselves out of the market as well. They would probably use the reduced cost to help offset costs on other less profitable models, and support R & D. In addition, each successive year in the life cycle of a car, the cost to produce it generally goes down as tooling is depreciated and paid for. How many cars have you seen get cheaper each year?

    There are plenty of other examples where manufacturing cost have been significantly reduced by cheap labor, but the savings hasn’t been passed on to American consumers.

    The U.S. textile and clothing industries is all but gone from the U.S. Since the implementation of NAFTA in 1994, about 1 million U.S. textile jobs have been lost. Clothes are now made in China, Mexico, and other cheap labor markets. As a result, the cost of producing clothes has gone down significantly for manufacturers. Has the price you pay for clothing gone down accordingly?

    Furniture that used to be produced in NC is now made in China because it’s cheaper. Hourly wages for furniture workers in China are between $0.50 and $0.75, which is much as ten times lower than what is legal in the U.S. How much has the price you pay for furniture gone down?

    The reason companies take their manufacturing overseas is to lower their costs, thereby maximizing their profit. They don’t do it to save you money.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    For some reason you seem to think U.S. workers need to accept lower wages to match what is going on in the rest of the world. You need to remember, manufacturing, for the most part, has gone to less developed countries with very low standards of living. These jobs help elevates the standard of living in those countries, which is good. However, for decades, the U.S. has enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world. One reason for that is U.S. workers were offered good wages and benefits. They provided economic stability and opportunities to improve ones standard of living. Now, you think Americans should lower their standard of living to meet those of less developed nations. I don’t agree with that.

    Somehow, we have been fooled into believing we must participate in the “global” economy, even if it works to our detriment. We don’t have to. Just look at the Japanese. They are masters of participating in the global economy while protecting their own markets. Before the current world wide economic slow down, the Japanese sold approximately 15 million cars world wide. At the same time, they have kept sales of non-Japanese cars to around 10k units (that includes all U.S., European, and Korean models) in Japan. Ninety five percent of all cars sold in Japan are Japanese cars. Through taxes and tariffs, they have made it almost impossible for the average Japanese citizen to buy a non-Japanese car. The car market in Japan is closed to imports. My point is, it’s okay to participate in the global economy, but take care of home first!



    You need to do a little more reading. Capitalism is what made this country wealthy. But, what made this country great was that everyone had a chance to get a piece of the pie. Of course, some people got a bigger piece than others, but everyone had a chance to get a piece. Unfair competition is not the type of capitalism that made this country great. Unfair competition hurts the economy in the long run. That is why there are laws that make sure the competition remains as fair as possible (i.e. anti-trust laws, fair trade laws, copyright, and trademark laws).



    The UAW was being paid these types of wages and benefits long before there was a “global” market. Now that manufacturing is leaving the U.S., or going to lower income states in the U.S. where wages are lower, you think the UAW’s wages are excessive. Did it ever occur to you that these other workers might be underpaid?

    In the 1960s, the auto companies and the UAW were hailed as good corporate citizens for providing such a good standard of living for their people. What they were being paid benefitted the entire economy. Now, they are being ridiculed for it. You may see auto workers’ pay and benefits as excessive, but some guy in China making $1/hour would probably see the money you make as excessive. So, why don’t you volunteer to give up a portion of your income to get closer to what they’re making in China? It would certainly make your company more competitive and profitable. It’s always easier to tell someone else what they should be willing to give up when you are not being forced to give up anything.




    It makes perfect sense when you understand the automotive business. In your scenario, Ford would probably not lower its prices. I have been around the automobile business a long time, and that is not how it works. If Ford’s pricing on that model was already competitive in that segment, they would not lower the price to gain a competitive advantage, they would take profit. Lowering the price significantly will not necessarily translate into a significant increase in sales. In addition, significantly lowering the price, devalues all cars in that segment. This will not be the last model Ford will want to sell in this market segment. The next car they introduce may not have that cost advantage over the competition, so they could end up pricing themselves out of the market as well. They would probably use the reduced cost to help offset costs on other less profitable models, and support R & D. In addition, each successive year in the life cycle of a car, the cost to produce it generally goes down as tooling is depreciated and paid for. How many cars have you seen get cheaper each year?

    There are plenty of other examples where manufacturing cost have been significantly reduced by cheap labor, but the savings hasn’t been passed on to American consumers.

    The U.S. textile and clothing industries is all but gone from the U.S. Since the implementation of NAFTA in 1994, about 1 million U.S. textile jobs have been lost. Clothes are now made in China, Mexico, and other cheap labor markets. As a result, the cost of producing clothes has gone down significantly for manufacturers. Has the price you pay for clothing gone down accordingly?

    Furniture that used to be produced in NC is now made in China because it’s cheaper. Hourly wages for furniture workers in China are between $0.50 and $0.75, which is much as ten times lower than what is legal in the U.S. How much has the price you pay for furniture gone down?

    The reason companies take their manufacturing overseas is to lower their costs, thereby maximizing their profit. They don’t do it to save you money.

    No one is suggesting that UAW members work for what is paid in other countries. However, the average UAW line worker makes more per hour and has much better benefits that a RN nurse! Yes, they are overpaid and and in the 1960's they were building mostly crappy vehilces. That's why people want Asian cars and trucks today. Detroit can't get consumers to forget quality and design issues of the past.

    Japanesse may buy some USA vehicles but don't fool yourself. They don't like what we build. What they did buy from us was trucks.

    Also, without Chineese manufactoring, there would be no Walmart. Yes, cloths are cheaper today.

    GM's buisness model will never turn a profit. Not with government in charge. We will never see our money back!
    Last edited by Franco; 06-19-2009 at 07:17 PM.
    “The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” –Thomas Jefferson

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