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Thread: Boycott Of GM Called

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    No one is suggesting that UAW members work for what is paid in other countries. However, the average UAW line worker makes more per hour and has much better benefits that a RN nurse!
    So, what level are you suggesting auto workers have their pay and benefits reduced to?

    Actually, the national average for a RN with about 5 years experience is about $25/hour. The average for an auto worker on the line is about $26/hour. Benefits for RNs vary by where they work, but on average, RNs receive pretty good benefits as part of their compensation. Maybe UAW workers may make more, but not much more.

    However, I guess your point is a UAW worker’s job is not as valuable as a RN’s job. That might be true, but you could make the same case that a pro athlete, movie star, banking executive, and a bunch of other professions aren’t as valuable as a RN’s job. Should we start adjusting all salaries based on who we think is the most valuable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Yes, they are overpaid and and in the 1960's they were building mostly crappy vehilces. That's why people want Asian cars and trucks today. Detroit can't get consumers to forget quality and design issues of the past.
    I agree the domestic auto companies built junk in the 60’s - 80’s. Even though they are building quality vehicles today, the perception remains that they build lousy cars. In reality, Ford and GM have models that have pushed some of the imports out of the top 5 in quality. The problem is consumers aren’t really willing to take a $25k chance to see if quality has improved. I can’t really say I blame them. It will take time to change their minds.

    However, you can’t really blame the average worker on the line for poor quality. They didn’t engineer the vehicles. They just put them together. The manufacturer dictated what was built and how it was built.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Japanesse may buy some USA vehicles but don't fool yourself. They don't like what we build. What they did buy from us was trucks.
    You miss my point, The Japanese auto market is pretty much closed to all non-Japanese auto maker, including Mercedes, BMW, VW, Fiat, Volvo, etc. If they opened the market, the Japanese would buy more than just our trucks. The Japanese may not have liked our cars in the past, but now that our quality equals or exceeds comparable Japanese models at about the same price, why wouldn’t they buy them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Also, without Chineese manufactoring, there would be no Walmart. Yes, cloths are cheaper today.
    Walmart has done more to destroy American manufacturing and displace American workers than just about any other corporation. As Americans continue to lose higher paying manufacturing jobs, the jobs they are left with, in many cases, are lower paying service jobs. Saving $5 on a pair of jeans at Walmart hardly offsets the $8 – 10 per hour they lost when their old job left the country. Wal-mart, and their joint venture with China, is not good for this county!

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Yes, cloths are cheaper today.
    Maybe if you’re buying all your clothes at Wal-mart, but most people shop at a wide variety of stores. If I shopped at Walmart, which I won’t, I could buy jeans, tube socks, and tee shirts there, but little else. I can’t show up to a meeting wearing a polyester Walmart suit, or plastic Walmart dress shoes. When I shop for dress clothes, the prices have not gone down.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Maybe if you’re buying all your clothes at Wal-mart, but most people shop at a wide variety of stores. If I shopped at Walmart, which I won’t, I could buy jeans, tube socks, and tee shirts there, but little else. I can’t show up to a meeting wearing a polyester Walmart suit, or plastic Walmart dress shoes. When I shop for dress clothes, the prices have not gone down.
    All of this is interconnected ... the price of clothes has not gone down because other costs have gone up. For example, electricity that's used in all phases of industry from manufacture to shipping. If one can't escape the cost of gasoline (shipping) or electricity, then one looks to those variables where costs can be cut.

    Truthfully, having seen the quality of clothing from places like Lands End and L.L. Bean go down the toilet as almost all of their stuff is now made overseas, while it used to be made in the U.S. I'm not in favor of what we have given up in quality. I do think that the retailers mentioned above would have more expensive clothing now if they were manufacturing in the US ... but, I, for one, would be willing to pay a little more for those clothes in order to have the quality.

    I do think that some of the union "rules" are now obsolete. We saw the same kind of thing happen with railroad unions, when workers who did nothing were still riding on the trains due to satisfy outdated union rules. I don't think that most people would mind union workers getting paid what they're paid for good workmanship.

    I believe someone mentioned right here in this forum that part of the UAW union rules had "laid off" workers sitting in rooms doing nothing, collecting full wages due to some archaic union rule. Thus the price of the labor is not only those workers who put the car together, but also the cost of the workers who are sitting in that room.

    Perhaps our greatest cost is due to the loss of common sense?
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Sundown49 aka Otey B's Avatar
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    Kind of strange that the obama govt can spend 50 billion of taxpayers money to save 50,000 jobs at gm. There are 6 million workers out of work where is the money to GIVE them jobs???
    My Dad said to me ."Son, a man just needs three things to be happy....A good dog, a good gun and a good wife.....Thank God I have all three
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown49 aka Otey B View Post
    Kind of strange that the obama govt can spend 50 billion of taxpayers money to save 50,000 jobs at gm. There are 6 million workers out of work where is the money to GIVE them jobs???
    The money was not just to save jobs at GM. It is meant to save the U.S. auto industry as a whole. Hopefully, not adding auto workers to the unemployment roles will keep the economy from getting any worse.

    I guess the rest of the stimulus package is meant to help put people back to work. I hope it works. Until people get back to work and have money to spend, I don't think the economy will turn around.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Sundown49 aka Otey B's Avatar
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    well the AMERICAN way for since this country was founded was for people to work hard and they would be rewarded. Not so now . mediocraty(sp.) is rewarded. Should have let GM go..... and start over from scratch.
    My Dad said to me ."Son, a man just needs three things to be happy....A good dog, a good gun and a good wife.....Thank God I have all three
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    Traveling Through The Graded Timber JH (2012 NAFC Trav X Timber MH QAA)

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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    For some reason you seem to think U.S. workers need to accept lower wages to match what is going on in the rest of the world. You need to remember, manufacturing, for the most part, has gone to less developed countries with very low standards of living. These jobs help elevates the standard of living in those countries, which is good. However, for decades, the U.S. has enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world. One reason for that is U.S. workers were offered good wages and benefits. They provided economic stability and opportunities to improve ones standard of living. Now, you think Americans should lower their standard of living to meet those of less developed nations. I don’t agree with that.
    You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said that US workers earnings should be compared with workers in other countries. I am comparing manufacturing wages within this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackstone View Post
    The UAW was being paid these types of wages and benefits long before there was a “global” market. Now that manufacturing is leaving the U.S., or going to lower income states in the U.S. where wages are lower, you think the UAW’s wages are excessive. Did it ever occur to you that these other workers might be underpaid?
    The only sustainable wages are dictated by the market. If they are artificially higher, as in the case in the manufacturing part of the auto industry they become unsustainable. GM, Chrysler, and to a certain extent Ford have proven that. I'm not sure how you can continue to argue against that point, except that you choose to.

    It's pretty clear to me that you have some axe to grind here. We'll never agree on this. It appears that you don't believe that capitalism works and I do, you're liberal and I'm conservative. This debate is going downhill fast.
    Last edited by honker88; 06-22-2009 at 06:12 AM.
    “Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ~ Ronald Reagan

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown49 aka Otey B View Post
    well the AMERICAN way for since this country was founded was for people to work hard and they would be rewarded. Not so now . mediocraty(sp.) is rewarded. Should have let GM go..... and start over from scratch.

    AMEN!!!

    Capitalism works, Socialism doesn't. As a general rule unions = mediocracy! They did a lot of good early on and served their purpose very well. Unfortunately they have outlived their usefullness.
    “Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.” ~ Ronald Reagan

  8. #58
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    I don't think the Gov't. should decide pay for the UAW.

    The market should (and has).


    I think the UAW members should make as much as they can while keeping thier respective company competitive and viable.

    The evidence (BANKRUPTCY) indicates they have not done that!

    just sayin'
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #59
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    Comes now the latest in the "Auto episodes". Enough to make you sick.

    UB

    If someone had said this to me one year ago (or ten years ago) I would have said - NAH - no way. Now all I can say is - it doesn't surprise me.

    I recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/guest was David E. Cole, Chairman of the Center for Automotive Resear ch (CAR). You have likely heard Cole quoted, or referred to in the auto industry news lately.

    Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a 30+ years of experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero engineering experience, tell them how to run their business.

    His favorite story is as follows:

    There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr Cole (Engineer, automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had looked up on some website.

    Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of batteries and a LNG tank as big as a car to make that happen and that there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them from...

    The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "These laws of physics? Who's rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up) We have the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are here, to fix these sort of issues".
    When the one you love becomes a memory, that memory becomes a treasure.

  10. #60
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Bill View Post
    Comes now the latest in the "Auto episodes". Enough to make you sick.

    UB

    If someone had said this to me one year ago (or ten years ago) I would have said - NAH - no way. Now all I can say is - it doesn't surprise me.

    I recently attended a breakfast meeting where the speaker/guest was David E. Cole, Chairman of the Center for Automotive Resear ch (CAR). You have likely heard Cole quoted, or referred to in the auto industry news lately.

    Mr. Cole, who is an engineer by training, told many stories of the difficulty of working with the folks that the Obama administration has sent to save the auto industry. There have been many meetings where a 30+ years of experience automotive expert has to listen to a newcomer to the industry, someone with zero manufacturing experience, zero auto industry experience, zero business experience, zero finance experience, and zero engineering experience, tell them how to run their business.

    His favorite story is as follows:

    There was a team of Obama people speaking to Mr Cole (Engineer, automotive experience 40+ years, Chairman of CAR). They were explaining to Mr. Cole that the auto companies needed to make a car that was electric and liquid natural gas (LNG) with enough combined fuel to go 500 miles so we wouldn't "need" so many gas stations (A whole other topic). They were quoting BTU's of LNG and battery life that they had looked up on some website.

    Mr. Cole explained that to do this you would need a trunk FULL of batteries and a LNG tank as big as a car to make that happen and that there were problems related to the laws of physics that prevented them from...

    The Obama person interrupted and said (and I am quoting here) "These laws of physics? Who's rules are those, we need to change that. (Some of the others wrote down the law name so they could look it up) We have the congress and the administration. We can repeal that law, amend it, or use an executive order to get rid of that problem. That's why we are here, to fix these sort of issues".
    What's your point?

    "The Obama" can do anything!!


    (anyone remember the story of the "Pied Piper?")
    Stan b & Elvis

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