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mouth problems

5K views 32 replies 21 participants last post by  GG 
#1 ·
In light of the other thread I would like to get others thoughts on different mouth issues and the underlying issues beneath the behavior.

Stickiness vs. Freezing..... are they related?

Are they pressure related?

What about what I would call a "nervous mouth" ? i.e. the dog that chomps and rolls birds as the excitement level increases......I've tried indirect pressure SIT stick or SIT nick and it seems to make it worse. If excitement level is low in training the mouth habits are good.

Is this related to stickiness?

I'm worried that all of these issues are different and may require different approaches.

Thanks in advance,

Bill
 
#2 ·
In my experience, both sticking and freezing have at least a partial genetic component. I have never had a sticky dog that didn't also have a first-degree relative who is also sticky.

I agree they are 3 completely different problems, and the solution is different for each. Freezing and sticking, I feel, are only "managed", never completely eliminated. But you can get a dog to the point where it only freezes or sticks offline (delayed response). Teaching a delayed reward helps a lot to minimizing these issues.

Lisa
 
#3 ·
I think that sticky and freezing are related, with sticky probably being a precursor to full fledged freezing. I think there are some genetics involved, but pressure tends to bring it out.

I think in many cases the origin of freezing is using the electric collar on a dog when he has a bird in his mouth. I think the mechanism works like this:

Freezing on birds- This is a classic escape response. The response is built by shocking a dog when he has a bird in his mouth. The shock causes the dog’s neck muscles to contract, which causes him to clench his teeth. To the dog this is a successful escape response that turned off the collar. Do it enough times and you will have a dog that will not release the bird to the handler. Frequently it manifests itself when the dog is stressed, as when running in a field trial.

It would be interesting to know electric collar history of some confirmed freezers. If I had a dog that was an intermitant freezer, I would keep records of every nick or shock I gave him so I could check the prior week's history on every instance of freezing. I think there would be a correlation between number of shocks or nicks and a following instance of freezing.



Best Regards,

Robert Milner
 
#4 ·
Maybe so Mr Milner.....but......I have another dog(not the one I'm referring to here) that was trained in the UK to FTCH and as far as I know never wore a collar that freezes on birds and is sticky always. I pinch her flank to break the trance and she readily releases.

The dog with the nervous mouth I do wonder about his FF history and timing/use of collar pressure.

With him I am reviewing hold and delivery with no pressure starting in the yard and trying to gradually amp up excitement levels maintaining a better mouth standard so hopefully he won't be constantly readjusting, rolling,etc in a trial.

Bill
 
#5 ·
Everything R. Milner said may be correct, but I have always been advised that freezing is an avoidance tactic employed by the dog to avoid retrieving another bird OR it is a dominance issue that the bird is "the dog's" not the handlers.

The avoidance comes from too much pressure in the field; the other comes from failure to yield.
 
#6 ·
I am more inclined to believe the latter (dominance) than the former (avoidance).

One, sticky dogs tend to be males.
Two, sticky dogs tend to stick on the last bird (usually when they have done VERY well)
Three, one bandaid, is to teach the dog that there is another retrieve waiting off line (tennis ball, glove, etc) if he gives up the bird on line
 
#10 ·
Personally I believe most mouth problems can be attributed to a improperly done or incompletely done force fetch program. I agree that many dogs are genetically given to stick and others to crunch but the object of training is to alter the dogs natural behavior.
Very few trainers truly understand that not only does the dog need to know he must fetch, but he also needs to know he must deliver. Delivery includes opening your mouth and backing away from the bird.
Dogs frequently start to stick as soon as the e-collar is introduced to force fetch. This is the trainer’s best opportunity to teach the dog that he must also release on command.
When you properly achieve both you have a balanced FF program and mouth problems just don’t happen.
Regards
Do it right or don't do it at all.
 
#24 ·
Personally I believe most mouth problems can be attributed to a improperly done or incompletely done force fetch program.........
Do it right or don't do it at all.
Your posts are high on attitude and low on how too Lynn.
I agree very much with Ted and Lisa’s posts in this thread.
The worst most stickiest freezingist dog I personally seen, Kid, has now passed on. Was owned by a friend and training partner of mine. The worst episodes were always the last bird in the last series. Always when Kid knew he had slammed the set up. Two times I saw, he needed to go all the way back to the truck to get the bird. I have now seen direct offspring of this dog with basics done by different trainers and the signs of potential mouth issues are there already. Nothing to the extent of their sire but just enough so you can tell, “That’s a Kid pup”. And the professional retriever trainer who did Kid’s basics before my friend got him was very complete.
So when your dogs “Frequently start to stick when you introduce the collar” what is your next step Lynn?
Time to up your “how too”:cool:
 
#11 ·
I can't speak to sticking or freezing but I can speak to the "anxious" mouthing as I finally cleaned that up a few months ago (maybe less, Idk). Anyways, Kiela had her hold program started twice before I started and followed through with force all the way through. That was mistake number one. Mistake number two, looking through my log for her, was thinking it was good that she was adjusting the position of the bumper in her mouth or picking up as soon as she dropped with a better grip. At least I think that's a mistake because there shouldn't be any movement in the mouth. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Mistake number three, that is STILL an ongoing battle, is people constantly "playing fetch" with her. And that means she brings the toy, stick, ball, whatever to the person, drops it at their feet, and they throw it over and over. She did well after she got out of force and I didn't start seeing problems until a few months later after intermittent training.

Her "diagnosis" was excitement anxiety. She thought the sooner she gave up, the sooner she'd get a retrieve. As soon as my hand moved toward her mouth, she'd start rolling/chomping. Any increased pressure and she'd just roll/chomp more.

Her "treatment" was a combination of a few things. We obviously went back to hold in the calmest and quietest setting and with both her and I very relaxed. I made her hold for a minute or so with my hand holding the bumper as well to teach her that just because my hand is there, she doesn't release until I give the command. I also would stand beside her, put my hand down, bring it back up, etc. Lots of praise ONLY for a good quiet hold. Now, with the positive comes the negative (sorry I don't have the techinical terms). Positive was the praise. Negative was a pinch collar correction for a bad hold. No, pop, hold. Gooooood (long drawn out said in a quiet voice). When I finally tried that it cleaned it up in 2 days. Also, a sit, nick, sit was introduced after the pinch as she doesn't wear the pinch in the field, only in the yard. And that helped tremendously as well. Indirect pressure?

What DIDN'T work was: chucking her under the chin, e-collar corrections before the above "treatment," gloved hand, bigger/different bumpers, etc. etc. I tried a lot before I finally got to this point. She will still chomp a stick during play fetch but I don't do much play fetch with her and she knows the difference now between play and work. I tell people to make her drop now and the only people allowed to play fetch is my little brother and sister and my dad really. She knows to hold properly with me when we're training. Today she had FF on birds and I didn't need any corrections for hold. We'll see how she does if I ever get her to a test or trial.

Just my experience. Right or wrong, it worked. The logic in my head was she needed a clearly defined consequence for not holding to show her she was doing something wrong, other than NO. AND it needed to be away from her mouth as that increased the anxiety. So it made sense to me anyways.
 
#12 ·
My YLF was "sticky". Didn't want to release bumpers even if we had more marks out in the field. My response was "If you want it - keep it". I give the hold command & walk away ~15yds call her to heel & try to take the bumper again. If she wouldn't release I gave the "hold" command and repeated for as many times as necessary until she released. After a week or so the number of times I had to use the drill dropped. Now she is a 100% on "hold" and I rarely, if ever, have her stick even a teeny bit. This was prior to her going through formal FF.
 
#13 ·
I think that:
- You can excellent basics
- You can teach remote drop
- You can have excellent delivery mechanics on line

And if you have a sticker or freezer, there will be times when you either cannot get the bird, or have a very rough go of it

It seems to happen with high rolling males in the fourth series, when they have done very well (and they know it)

Their eyes glaze over, they go into a trance, and they are not there

I think it is more genetic than anything else
 
#14 ·
It seems to happen with high rolling males in the fourth series, when they have done very well (and they know it)[/SIZE][/FONT]
Cannot help wondering if water difficulty/retrieves play a part?

If we look at not giving up the bird as a single behaviour? Not somehow compare it to human teeth grinding or finger nail chewing which can be stress related?

Mouth problems are not fun. Interestingly many US well versed contacts mentioned soft mouths more than hard.
 
#16 ·
Mr "fetch-hold" is correct with his response.
NOT enough time is spent on the release of the object.
I never move my hand from the dogs mouth. The dog moves his self away from the fetched object.
When I say drop he/she moves away. Never ever been an issue.
I see way tooo many handlers pulling the bird away from the dog.
Have only seen it a trial once and it was a "Chessie' Sorry guys.:(
It was his bird and the judges excused the handler. I was in the holding blind.
Sue
 
#17 ·
All of the stickers/freezers that I have seen were high rolling males. And they never stuck when they did poorly (which is when you would expect them to experience stress). They only stuck when they did well[/QUOTE

If they did well in all 4 series ,,,,was it more taxing on their brain to properly negotiate and fight facters thus their job well done has also produced stress.
IE must jump briush pile,,,must seek water,,,must hold line ect ect. Obviously they don't think that way but,,,,a job well done does not nessessarily mean no stress.

As compared to a dog that fought nothing.

Pete
 
#18 ·
Is sticking and freezing something that is peculiar to labs or retrieving breeds? I have trained and FFed quite a few pointing dogs (German Shorthairs, German Wirehairs, etc,) to get a consistent and stylish retrieve, and never seen this problem, especially freezing.

I usually spend a lot of time on the "Hold" command during training to eliminate any rolling or chewing. If the pup doesn't drop the object at the "Give" command, which is common when pressure is introduced to the process, I usually just slip a finger behind the object and on the back of the tongue to cause a gag response. After a couple of times, the dog gets the idea what’s coming next if they don’t let go right away. That usually solves the problem. I am just curious if retrievers respond differently.
 
#19 ·
Sticking and freezing are complicated problems and I do agree with many of the techniques that both cause and solve the problem that are mentioned. As far as ancestry having anything to do with S or F in my mind the jury is still out; i think that in most cases it has to do more with a dog's temperament. In my experience, the freezers and stickers i have dealt with have the root of the problem coming form nerves or resentment, and resentment can come from the training or the person who is doing the training. Bottom line, it usually takes experience to to manage the problem.
GG
 
#21 ·
Totally different perspective here. My dog did not start having trouble with chomping, etc, until he was really cracked down on for line manners. It has taken a god's age to get over the chomp, (I think we are there) but it was totally a reaction to pressure. As I have said before, sometimes training a high roller is like squeezing a tube of toothpaste. You get one part where you want it and the mess pops out somewhere else.
 
#23 ·
I have to agree with Ted. We have Ivan (the terrible) who has shown propensity of stickiness from his early Derby career...and thereafter. Won two derbies and we quit running him. Trained and waited. and took all of the advise available...won a Q right out of the box and had a problem on the last water bird. No one was around to watch the 'dance' and my husband did get the bird. No problem for a while longer until a day out of the blue training down south with hen phesants..ugly day. Won a large Open and another Open third and easily gave up the birds. Why? Since then, it's been touch and go. Amazingly though, he NEVER sticks in a hunt test! He never knows it's the last bird due to duck calls, diversion marks, sitting outside of a holding blind etc. Just enough to keep him off balance.Wasted talent and very frustrating.
 
#25 ·
Mine froze well before i even started teaching hold ( he delivered to hand as a pup). Froze when just play fetching with frisbee or whatever. Got that glazed look and wasn't giving up the toy. Never happened with water, only land. I could see it building up at around the 4th or 5th retrieve. I knew if I threw another he was gonna freeze. when he did frreeze and i would finally get it away from him he would just attack it to get it back. Just like a attack dog would. NO correction made a difference. Like I wasen't even there. he never did it while training. Genetics? Don't know. Hi rollers? I only have experience training him and watching alot of FT's but I would say his desire is way up there. I think they just get high on the retrieves.

I don't like the freeze but I LOVE the go. how do you handle it when the next dogs don't have the same desire?can you ever be happy with less?
 
#26 ·
[Nothing to the extent of their sire but just enough so you can tell, “That’s a Kid pup”. And the professional retriever trainer who did Kid’s basics before my friend got him was very complete.
/QUOTE]

Ken a quick "?"
Did the dog freeze when the pro had him?
Or did it take a while after he got it back?

Pete
 
#28 ·
I've too little sticking/freezing experience to add much except that the only time one of my dogs has displayed it was after I'd been a genuine bunghole and read a sensitive dog the riot act for something he didn't understand. Had the dickens of a time getting him to release subsiquent birds that morning, but put the problem permanently behind us by trading Liv-A-Snaps for ducks that afternoon.
 
#29 ·
reading this with interest and trying to apply to my problem - stickiness and sloppy delivery in test situations only. the dog just started doing this after completing SH and running a couple of masters - he comes back, drops the bird and regrips but overly so, then comes to heel and continues to be mouthy, gradually releasing the bird and occassionally snapping back at it, then the cue for the next bird and he is past it and intently focused on the next retrieve, be it blind or mark. he continues to mouth heavily even if i cue him for the next bird with bird in mouth or not. he is a fairly high roller for a non-FT line. he does it on every bird on every series, whether he does very well or not, whether is is a sloppy soaked day old duck or a fresh flyer. no other relatives have the problem. he has had little line pressure other than basic OB, so i truly think this is an anxiety issue.

it is very hard to duplicate this in training, when training with bumpers he is obedient to heel and may chomp a little bit but releases immediately on command. using birds if he drops the duck i give a quick fetch-nick-fetch and he is like a soldier at my side, then is fine the rest of the session, no buginess or any adverse reaction and not even a nanohint of reluctance. the dog is all go all the time. so part of the issue is collar/test wise-iness i think. he knows what i expect, but the anxiety level at a test and with no collar or other tools for pressure he gets away with it. we also get once a week training with 6 -9 other dogs with wingers etc in full hunt test simulation.

so, even though he is coming to heel nicely with a bird in training (after the one time he tries to drop it and gets corrected with the fetch-nick-fetch), i am thinking i should give a quick here-nick-here to enforce the fact that he must immediately be at my side with no time to drop it and play - basicaly an enroute force to heel, certainly not too high. then once at my side (with a prong collar and 1' lead) i can then grab the lead and ensure a nice tall sit and delivery with the line up for the next bird. make him hold for a good while with lots of gentle calm praise, , then release and cue the next retrieve. maybe even have a treat reward immediately upon release.

my thought is to enstill a routine conditioned response so he gets in the habit of a very quick return to heel, the prong collar enforces a tall sit without too much pressure, and there is no nicking at the line with bird in mouth so the fear of too much pressure making it worse is not a factor.. i tried it yesterday and it seemed to have all the desired effects, no reluctance of bugging was noted, but before i go into an extended routine i wanted to see what other pitfalls to be concerned about.

other points - putting the e and prong collars on at least an hour in advance and leaving them on well after the session to try to break the mental connection of tools with training. mixing in very short birds to keep the drive and excitement high then letting it taper with longer retrieves.
 
#30 ·
I find that it is usually an Amateur-type of problem.
Someone that happened in training the caused it.
Doesn't just appear out of the clear-blue sky.
I also think that each dog with it's own stickiness is in its' own world of the cause.(pressure,anxiety,.......)
If you think that it is genetic..................I have to ask, Does the same person own both dogs????????????
Maybe it's NOT the dogs.:)
Sue
 
#31 ·
I dont think its genetic myself, i only mentioned all the things i did to address all the points that were discussed in all the previous posts.

personally, i think it could be a matter of not training with ducks enough, so i plan on using ducks exclusively till the next test and see if it makes a difference.. i used to train with bumpers and then the occasional duck, satisfied that he "got it", and he did - but then he maybe equated the ducks with the pressure of all the hoopla at a test and thats where seed got watered.

FWIW its the 3rd HT dog i have trained with similar methods and there were zero problems before. the pros i know all shrug their shoulders and tell me to come tell them if i figure out how to fix it....
 
#33 ·
i have a great deal of sympathy for anyone whose dog has developed this problem. As you can see by the threads on this subject, there are many potential causes and no absolute cures. I'm sure every professional trainer has has his successes and failures as i have. We can guess as to the cause of the problem, but only the dog knows.
Some of the techniques i used on one probelm dog, did not work on the next. Eventually, my philosophy developed to; make damned sure this dog has enough talent to make such a difficult challenge worthwhile.
have fun training
GG
 
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