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Thread: Cap and Trade Tax Vote Coming Up

  1. #1
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    Default Cap and Trade Tax Vote Coming Up

    This is is stupid and riddled with fraud (underestimating costs). I am against it. Better engineering and innovations that happen naturally do to economic profits is the way to go.
    Terry Britton, P.E.

    Engineers believe that if it isn't broken, it doesn't have enough features yet.

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    Senior Member Bob Gutermuth's Avatar
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    http://michellemalkin.com/2009/06/26...port-revealed/

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    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    Last I heard, there's no way this will pass in the Senate IF it gets out of the House intact....

    kg
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

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    Senior Member Goose's Avatar
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    The democrats are practicing fascism like we've never seen in this country.

    We live in Cuba now.

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    The democrats are practicing fascism like we've never seen in this country.

    We live in Cuba now.
    I understand that it is easier to call things names than it is to argue based on facts and reason, However, I fail to see any basis at all for your first sentence. Wikipedia defines fascism as follows:

    "Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism, rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism. "

    There are many definitions but this one is as good as any I have seen. What exactly is your basis for saying that the Democrats are practicing Fascism? What is your basis for saying "We live in Cuba now."? Hyperbole may sound nice but it is not a form of rational argument.

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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I understand that it is easier to call things names than it is to argue based on facts and reason, However, I fail to see any basis at all for your first sentence. Wikipedia defines fascism as follows:

    "Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement. Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism, rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism. "

    There are many definitions but this one is as good as any I have seen. What exactly is your basis for saying that the Democrats are practicing Fascism? What is your basis for saying "We live in Cuba now."? Hyperbole may sound nice but it is not a form of rational argument.

    Mr. Yardley, are you paying attention at all to what's happening?

    By your posted definition, this is exactly where we are headed!
    Stan b & Elvis

  7. #7
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Mr. Yardley, are you paying attention at all to what's happening?

    By your posted definition, this is exactly where we are headed!
    I think we've come close a few times in our history. Certainly the attacks by Senator Joe McCarthy and his ilk smacked of fascism, and Johnson and Nixon's efforts to suppress anti-war efforts smacked of fascism. Similarly, the Bush/Cheney efforts to extend Presidential power smacked of fascism. Happily, however, we as a country have always proven to be too unruly to accept the notion of an authoritarian government despite the efforts of those suffering delusions of imminent invasion and subversion to scare us in that direction.

    Personally, I do not believe in according our government too much respect and deference no matter who is in charge. Having worked in government, I know how easy it is to fall in love with power and to begin thinking that your job is to save people from themselves. I am not afraid of those who state their legislative desires publicly and fight for them legislatively. I am afraid of those who withhold information for our own good and take actions secretly "on our behalf" because procedures for democratically based decision making are too cumbersome or might "weaken" us. In my mind, anyone doing that from a position of governmental power is moving us towards fascism.

    By contrast, the proposals on cap and trade were a clear part of the campaign platform of the candidate and party that won support from a majority of voters in the last election. The bills introduced have been publicly developed and openly debated. They will pass in some form or fail to pass. That is democracy in action, not fascism.

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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I think we've come close a few times in our history. Certainly the attacks by Senator Joe McCarthy and his ilk smacked of fascism, and Johnson and Nixon's efforts to suppress anti-war efforts smacked of fascism. Similarly, the Bush/Cheney efforts to extend Presidential power smacked of fascism. Happily, however, we as a country have always proven to be too unruly to accept the notion of an authoritarian government despite the efforts of those suffering delusions of imminent invasion and subversion to scare us in that direction.

    Personally, I do not believe in according our government too much respect and deference no matter who is in charge. Having worked in government, I know how easy it is to fall in love with power and to begin thinking that your job is to save people from themselves. I am not afraid of those who state their legislative desires publicly and fight for them legislatively. I am afraid of those who withhold information for our own good and take actions secretly "on our behalf" because procedures for democratically based decision making are too cumbersome or might "weaken" us. In my mind, anyone doing that from a position of governmental power is moving us towards fascism.

    By contrast, the proposals on cap and trade were a clear part of the campaign platform of the candidate and party that won support from a majority of voters in the last election. The bills introduced have been publicly developed and openly debated. They will pass in some form or fail to pass. That is democracy in action, not fascism.
    Great answer.
    I don't agree, but it is a very good answer.
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I
    "Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology and a corporatist economic ideology.
    Jeff,

    You attempt to make a "rational" argument but rarely do.

    Your quote from above sounds just like the Obama administration. The take over of the auto industry, the forced take over of the banking system. Threatening the banks to buy unwanted assets. The firing or the threat firing corporate CEOs. The take over of the health care system. Attempting to shift charity contributions away from private donations to a government system. Control of the energy sector through cap and trade. The list goes on and on.

    On the other hand what was fascist about Bush. Lets see "deregulation" nope. Free trade, nope, maybe spying on our enemy.
    Under your definition I don't see it but maybe in your infinite wisdom you can explain it to all of us simpletons.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Jeff,
    I think that many who use the term "fascist" in regards to the current situation are referring to the fact that the fascist economic system involved government control of private industry. I do see some parallels. On the other side of the coin is the left's view that some on the right take and authoritarian stance on social issues. I agree to some degree with your example of McCarthy, but not as much with the Nixon example and certainly not with the Bush/Cheney example.
    I find it interesting that many who were so concerned about the Bush Administration's "expansion of the power of the Executive Branch" when it came to national security are strangely silent on the vast expansion of the powers of the Executive Branch that are happening now.
    Using terms like "fascist", "socialist", etc. are rarely constructive, but sometimes they are the only words we have.
    I am certainly no Bush apologist and find it pointless to get into discussions about what happened during the Bush years, the Clinton years or any other time in our history unless it provides a lesson with how to deal with events today. It's too easy for those in power (right or left) to use the acts of the previous administrations as an excuse for poor government today. Too often it breaks down into childish arguments that are no more constructive than, "he hit me first", "my dad can beat up your dad" and "liar, liar pants on fire". That works in elementary school, but if we as individuals (regardless of where we fall on the political spectrum) don't stop arguing and start thinking, we are going to be in one heck of a mess.
    Matt McKenzie

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