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Thread: Happy 4th of July

  1. #11
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    BTW---Enjoy your celebration of "Independence Day."

    I am not certain how many more we will have.


    Thats another reason I no longer call myself a Republican. I see many wishing this country would fail, or be struck again, just to get in a big "I told ya so" ever since losing control of the house, senate, and white house.

    I'm not accusing anyone on this list, but it seems implicit in some of the comments.

    I certainly hope you are WRONG on this account. Otherwise me and millions of other veterans and active duty troops have really pissed away years of our life serving and sacrificing for this great country, in hopes we can pass it on to our kids.

    Despite the above comments, I'm having a wonderful 4th, and hope others do also!

    dave
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  2. #12
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post

    Thats another reason I no longer call myself a Republican. I see many wishing this country would fail, or be struck again, just to get in a big "I told ya so" ever since losing control of the house, senate, and white house.

    dave
    I don't believe it is the "I told you so" syndrome but, more the fact that many believe that Obama, Pelosi, Read, Dodd and Frank are leading us to economic and financial hell. As well as weak Foreign Policy via his International Apology Tours. Then, there is the suspicion of his ill feelings for Israel and his love of the Islamic world. There is more but, you get the point.

    Yes, we know Bush43 was a disaster and that this not a defense for what Obama is doing NOW.
    Last edited by Franco; 07-04-2009 at 09:38 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  3. #13
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Loeffelholz View Post
    "Many" is not the "Majority" - and that is the way our democracy works and has for well over 200 years
    No kidding!

    You may want to check his declining appoval ratings. In three years they could be lower than what Bush's was at the end of his 8 years.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  4. #14
    Senior Member HuntsmanTollers's Avatar
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    It has never been the majority that has made us great. There are numerous instances where the majority was wrong. What has always made us great is that we have had leaders who have done what they thought was right even if it was not popular. Now we have too many "leaders" who lead by just following polling data. Great way to stay popular but doesn't sound like leading to me.
    Huntsman Tollers
    Matt & Julie Martin

  5. #15
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntsmanTollers View Post
    It has never been the majority that has made us great. There are numerous instances where the majority was wrong. What has always made us great is that we have had leaders who have done what they thought was right even if it was not popular. Now we have too many "leaders" who lead by just following polling data. Great way to stay popular but doesn't sound like leading to me.
    That is a statement of huge importance!

    The History Channel had a wonderful documentary today on the Revolutionary War ... from the first shots at Lexington. The birth of this nation is nothing short of miraculous. It was five long years from the Declaration to the surrender at Yorktown.

    As late as May 1780, Washington had to watch Charleston SC fall to the British because he could not send reinforcements from New Jersey ... because the men had no shoes to march in. I don't think we can begin to imagine how much faith in the cause it took for Washington to not throw in the towel.

    As the documentary progressed beyond the Washington years, it became apparent that this country has weathered many dire events since its beginnings. Its survival is almost as miraculous as its birth. Somehow the country always has been able to pull together when it is most important to do so.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  6. #16
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntsmanTollers View Post
    It has never been the majority that has made us great. There are numerous instances where the majority was wrong. What has always made us great is that we have had leaders who have done what they thought was right even if it was not popular. Now we have too many "leaders" who lead by just following polling data. Great way to stay popular but doesn't sound like leading to me.
    Sounds like the justification for the war in Iraq. Changed on a weekly basis as their premises fell through. I thought it was in very poor taste when W made fun of there being no WMDs at the press roast. I remember him looking under sofa cushions saying oops, no weapons there....while our men and women were actually fighting and dying in the war he started on those pretenses, he now thought were the punch line of a joke. I was out of uniform by that time, but really felt slapped across the face by our commander in chief.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  7. #17
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I don't believe it is the "I told you so" syndrome but, more the fact that many believe that Obama, Pelosi, Read, Dodd and Frank are leading us to economic and financial hell. As well as weak Foreign Policy via his International Apology Tours. Then, there is the suspicion of his ill feelings for Israel and his love of the Islamic world. There is more but, you get the point.

    Yes, we know Bush43 was a disaster and that this not a defense for what Obama is doing NOW.
    This is an accurate statement!

    In regards to the veteran comment, I have a fairly decent military resume' as well.
    Fortunately I was only in 2 fights!
    We got out OK!

    As far as Independence goes..........
    Is AIG independent now?
    Is GM?
    How about Chrysler?
    Ever here of Caterpillar?
    How about Briggs & Stratton?

    Get it?

    In regard to the sarcastic comment lamenting my comment about "Godless progressives?"
    Read the Fossil thread.
    When at least a half a dozen people claim they don't believe in God, then by definition, they would be God-less.
    And, coincidentally, they are all progressive thinkers (again, by definition).

    So, you can rip the comments all you like.
    But this is a nation of Freedom, Liberty and opportunity!
    The Declaration of Independence is the target, not a starting point!

    What is the goal with the efforts from Washington right now?
    Where are we headed?
    What exactly are they trying to achieve?

    And.....in regard to the Stimulus Bill, where are the jobs??

    No, I don't like what is going on.

    In addition, some of the most liberal posters on this site have become friends of mine.
    (I'll leave it to them if they want to admit it!)
    So jump to any conclusion you like, but they are nothing more than guesses!

    In regard to "The Obama," he is the President of my country right now, and if he called for my service, I would serve again in a heart beat, but I don't like our direction right now!!

    stan b
    Stan b & Elvis

  8. #18
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    This is an accurate statement!

    In regards to the veteran comment, I have a fairly decent military resume' as well.
    Fortunately I was only in 2 fights!
    We got out OK!

    As far as Independence goes..........
    Is AIG independent now?
    Is GM?
    How about Chrysler?
    Ever here of Caterpillar?
    How about Briggs & Stratton?

    Get it?

    In regard to the sarcastic comment lamenting my comment about "Godless progressives?"
    Read the Fossil thread.
    When at least a half a dozen people claim they don't believe in God, then by definition, they would be God-less.
    And, coincidentally, they are all progressive thinkers (again, by definition).

    So, you can rip the comments all you like.
    But this is a nation of Freedom, Liberty and opportunity!
    The Declaration of Independence is the target, not a starting point!

    What is the goal with the efforts from Washington right now?
    Where are we headed?
    What exactly are they trying to achieve?

    And.....in regard to the Stimulus Bill, where are the jobs??

    No, I don't like what is going on.

    In addition, some of the most liberal posters on this site have become friends of mine.
    (I'll leave it to them if they want to admit it!)
    So jump to any conclusion you like, but they are nothing more than guesses!

    In regard to "The Obama," he is the President of my country right now, and if he called for my service, I would serve again in a heart beat, but I don't like our direction right now!!

    stan b
    Stan,

    As one of the "Godless Progressives" you speak of, I took no offense at your comments. In 1959 Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book named the Sirens of Titan where he spoke of the Church of "God the Utterly Indifferent." Even as a 12 year old when I read it, that captured my imagination. I have never believed in God but also didn't not believe. I simply didn't feel it was very important. In my mind, the miracle of life was real regardless of its genesis (pun intended). A God capable of creating all of our diversity, in my mind, would only revel at seeing it unfold, not expect or care about if or how anyone gave thanks. Once again, in my mind, the important thing has always been reverence for the miracle of life, of our environment, and of our diversity.

    My progressiveness grows directly from that reverence. It is with that same spirit that I revere the Declaration of Independence as the beginning it was. It stated a fundamental objective, an ideal, that we as a nation would seek to achieve. It is an objective that is still eludes us. It also stated specific causes for the revolution, setting the yardstick high for when it becomes necessary and justifiable to sever the connections that bind us. I would wish that those who bandy about notions of secession would be so responsible in setting out their causes instead of whining because the majority of voters elected a President they hate.

    For eight years, I lived under Bush, a man I believe will be known as one of the worst Presidents of our history. For the first four years, I lived with the fact that he was not even elected by a plurality of voters and that his election by the electoral college came from a highly suspect decision by partisan political cronies. In his second term, I lived with the fact that the majority of voters clearly voted for him no matter how stupid and misguided I believed them to be. I lived with his Presidency as he embroiled us in a war that I believed was unjustified, as he implemented economic policies that I believed threatened our long term viability as a nation, and as he waged war on some of our most important civil liberties. I hated his policies, and still do. However, there is no question that he was our President throughout those eight years and that I was an American throughout that time. I never considered seceding or emigrating. As a citizen, it was and is my responsibility to formulate my opinions and be willing to support them in discussions of our future and in voting. I did so.

    I appreciate your comments and respect your willingness to fulfill your responsibilities as a citizen even when you disagree violently with the directions being taken by our current President. I am less willing to respect those who say -- whether seriously or not -- that they would welcome armed rebellion or secession instead. For me, that is anti-Americans and a betrayal of our heritage.

    While I am not bothered by being called a "Godless Progressive", I can easily understand that the much larger group of religious progressives on this forum and in this country would feel insulted by being lumped in with me. You appear sometimes to be equating their progressiveness with atheism. I can't imagine a more radical liberal than Jesus.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 07-05-2009 at 07:49 AM.

  9. #19
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Stan,

    As one of the "Godless Progressives" you speak of, I took no offense at your comments. In 1959 Kurt Vonnegut wrote a book named the Sirens of Titan where he spoke of the Church of "God the Utterly Indifferent." Even as a 12 year old when I read it, that captured my imagination. I have never believed in God but also didn't not believe. I simply didn't feel it was very important. In my mind, the miracle of life was real regardless of its genesis (pun intended). A God capable of creating all of our diversity, in my mind, would only revel at seeing it unfold, not expect or care about if or how anyone gave thanks. Once again, in my mind, the important thing has always been reverence for the miracle of life, of our environment, and of our diversity.

    My progressiveness grows directly from that reverence. It is with that same spirit that I revere the Declaration of Independence as the beginning it was. It stated a fundamental objective, an ideal, that we as a nation would seek to achieve. It is an objective that is still eludes us. It also stated specific causes for the revolution, setting the yardstick high for when it becomes necessary and justifiable to sever the connections that bind us. I would wish that those who bandy about notions of secession would be so responsible in setting out their causes instead of whining because the majority of voters elected a President they hate.

    For eight years, I lived under Bush, a man I believe will be known as one of the worst Presidents of our history. For the first four years, I lived with the fact that he was not even elected by a plurality of voters and that his election by the electoral college came from a highly suspect decision by partisan political cronies. In his second term, I lived with the fact that the majority of voters clearly voted for him no matter how stupid and misguided I believed them to be. I lived with his Presidency as he embroiled us in a war that I believed was unjustified, as he implemented economic policies that I believed threatened our long term viability as a nation, and as he waged war on some of our most important civil liberties. I hated his policies, and still do. However, there is no question that he was our President throughout those eight years and that I was an American throughout that time. I never considered seceding or emigrating. As a citizen, it was and is my responsibility to formulate my opinions and be willing to support them in discussions of our future and in voting. I did so.

    I appreciate your comments and respect your willingness to fulfill your responsibilities as a citizen even when you disagree violently with the directions being taken by our current President. I am less willing to respect those who say -- whether seriously or not -- that they would welcome armed rebellion or secession instead. For me, that is anti-Americans and a betrayal of our heritage.
    Mr. Yardley,
    "I disagree with what you say, and I would fight to the death for your right to say it!!"

    stan b
    Stan b & Elvis

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    I appreciate your comments and respect your willingness to fulfill your responsibilities as a citizen even when you disagree violently with the directions being taken by our current President. I am less willing to respect those who say -- whether seriously or not -- that they would welcome armed rebellion or secession instead. For me, that is anti-Americans and a betrayal of our heritage.

    IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
    The concept, as you see, is not without precedent.

    However, only someone wiser than I could discern whether a list of "causes" could be made that meet the egregious violations listed in the Declaration of 1776.

    However, in the reality of our nation today, the way to "rebel" is through the ballot box.

    We often mention that we "must" vote for one of the two principal parties, R or D, because a vote for a minority party would be "wasted". However, if a third party could draw enough votes to put demonstrate general dissatisfaction with botht he Rs and Ds, it might lead to those 3rd party ideas having a greater impact on the two primary parties. With the Rs and Ds sort of in a dead heat for the votes cast, if the 3rd party were of significant enough numbers, either the Rs or Ds might be led to modify their platforms to appeal to this 3rd party group if the numbers were significant enough. Wouldn't happen in just one election round; or maybe even two. Nothing in the evolution of our country's policies and trends has happened that quickly, but rather a more gradual trend.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

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