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Thread: Happy 4th of July

  1. #41
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
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    Pete,

    Here you go......from www.merriam-webster.com:

    Main Entry: sy·co·phant
    Pronunciation: \-fənt also -ˌfant\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin sycophanta slanderer, swindler, from Greek sykophantēs slanderer, from sykon fig + phainein to show — more at fancy
    Date: 1575
    : a servile self-seeking flatterer

    synonyms: see parasite

    — sycophant adjective

    Present company excepted regards,

    kg
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post

    There were paintings that went along with the workings of the constitution with all 56(/?) framers shown. They all worked together to put this together. Is what your saying that after all the hard work and brainstorming of these 56 men,,, That George,Thomas J ,Ben and Thomas P

    secretly changed what the group came up with. And these other 50 some ott men just signed it for kix.

    I would have immagined that they looked it over before they put their John Hancock on it to make sure it covered the things they worked on and re read and re red it to make sure everything was as perfect as possible.


    It wouldnt make sence that 56 people worked on it but only 4 got to use their input. And then the other 52 blindly put their X on it. They sounded incredably adimit in their writings of what this country should be founded on.

    Pete
    When that painting was first exhibited on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the D of I, John Adams was outraged. He said that they never stood around as each signed because they were to busy coming and going to and from the convention.

    Thomas Jefferson locked himself inside his room and hammered it out. That document is to well written to be the product of a committee. There were some minor revisions to it before the final draft. I would hope they all read it before signing it. Unlike what we have today where out representatives are either not given enough time or don't care enough to read legislation.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  3. #43
    Senior Member IowaBayDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    When that painting was first exhibited on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the D of I, John Adams was outraged. He said that they never stood around as each signed because they were to busy coming and going to and from the convention.

    Are you sure your not confusing a story about the Anniversary of the signing of the Constitution?

    This is the background on the picture of the signing of the Declaration. An Adams controversy but not that one.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumbul...f_Independence
    ________________________________
    Dan Cram
    Skywatcher Salem Orchard Hard "Cider"

  4. #44
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaBayDog View Post
    Are you sure your not confusing a story about the Anniversary of the signing of the Constitution?

    This is the background on the picture of the signing of the Declaration. An Adams controversy but not that one.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumbul...f_Independence
    John Adams was in France as our Ambassador to France when the Constitution was written. He loathed that he was not there to give his imput.

    The photo in the link is the one he objected to.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  5. #45
    Senior Member K.Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Ben Franklin, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine were Deist. George Washington wavered between Deism and his Christian upbring.
    __________________






    Pete
    Pete help me, where are you guys getting this info, I honestly cannot find one verifiable legitimate source that agrees with this.
    Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

  6. #46
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    That was me, Lucifer that wrote that, not Pete.

    I posted the Tommy Jefferson quotes you asked for. Do you not believe his own quotes?
    Last edited by Franco; 07-05-2009 at 03:38 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  7. #47
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    Yep thats one of the pictures. It was portraid with the names of all the men present. Then writings and documents were presented of all of those men. I didn't count them all but It sure caught my attention.
    There writings were plentiful and the word God and JC we splattered all over. So if they chose to use God and JC in some of their writtings,,,, to me they gave that subject plenty of consideration. While not all of what they wrote was chapter and verse. The jist of what they wrote could be parallelled by chapter and verse. I believe that our constitution was an inspiration of our founding fathers and not some slapped together set of standards.


    Kg


    A fancy word knower I am not
    And lucifer I appreciate you candor



    Pete

  8. #48
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K.Bullock View Post
    Pete help me, where are you guys getting this info, I honestly cannot find one verifiable legitimate source that agrees with this.
    These are a selection of quotes that I included concerning the support for separation of church and state and reflect on the religious beliefs of Madison, Jefferson, Franklin and Paine:

    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Thomas Jefferson:Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:



    "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."


    John Adams: "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788]


    "The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
    ". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

    James Madison: Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments (1785)

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

    Ben Franklin: Autobiography

    ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a through Deist."

    Thomas Paine: The Age of Reason

    "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church. "
    "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity."


    The fact is that at the time of the Revolution, church attendance was relatively uncommon. Many of the framers of the Constitution were Freemasons -- deists but unwedded to notions of Christian orthodoxy -- and that was a factor promoting their view of a secular state. There was a subset of the population that lobbied for designation of the country as a Christian nation, and that attack was actually part of the campaign against Jefferson. However, Jefferson was elected and the push to make religion more a part of the fabric of the country largely dissipated.
    In looking at the religious beliefs of the signers of the Declaration of Independence there is, of necessity, a certain lack of clarity because of the nature of religion in late 18th century/early 18th century America.

    At that time may, if not most, people lived too far away from churches to attend regularly. In addition, denominational identification tended to be a little loose since distance and communication limited the contacts between individual churches and the parent organizations with which they might be affiliated in theory.

    This was particularly an issue with Congregationalists who at that time had no defined creed, but endorsed having each church set its own theological direction. Beginning in Massachusetts, but spreading to the other New England states, there was a rapid influx of Unitarian ministers who rejected notions of the deity of Christ while espousing the moral principles of the man Jesus. By 1800, all of the Congregational churches in Boston and the divinity school at Harvard had become Unitarian. More conservative Congregationalists sought to push back and began demanding that congregations adopt a basic statement of creed that recognized the divinity of Christ. About half of the Congregational churches went along with this and the other half broke off to become Unitarian. Congregationalists sued to retain ownership of the church properties, but the Courts at the time awarded ownership based on majority votes of the individual congregations. Though not as pronounced, similar struggles faced other denominations, including Anglicans or Episcopalians, where there were also large numbers of congregations that resisted central discipline and moved towards more deist creeds.

    Not surprisingly, a lot of these free thinking types were attracted to the revolutionary spirit.

    Ben Franklin was raised and educated as an Episcopalian. However, he openly proclaimed himself to be a deist.

    Jefferson was similarly raised an Episcopalian but never joined any congregation as an adult. He declared himself to be a sect of one, and petitioned the Unitarian Association to begin a congregation in Virginia that he could attend. He rejected the notion that Jesus Christ might be other than a very special man and in fact rejected almost all notion of miracles of any kind (evident in his rewrite of The Jefferson Bible.).

    John Adams was initially a Congregationalist, but became a Unitarian as the split developed in Massachusetts, rejecting the signing of a creedal statement accepting the divinity of Jesus. Adams, who was no friend to Jefferson until much later in life, made many statements of admiration for Jesus and generally called himself a Christian, but rejected the notion of any link between government and organized religion and, as noted, ultimately called himself a Unitarian.

    Robert Treat Paine, also a signatory, followed a similar path although he is less well known. He was originally a member of a Congregationalist Church but became a Unitarian when the two denominations split.

    In fact, altogether, about a quarter of the signers of the Declaration were Congregationalists (second only to Anglicans), believing in the complete autonomy of individual churches to define their own religious creeds. That made this group strong supporters of a firm separation of church and state.

    James Madison was an Episcopalian but was violently opposed to ties between government and religion and distrustful of organized religion even as he attended church while President. As noted in the quote cited previously, he stated "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

    Thomas Paine, often identified as a father of the revolution because of his publication of the treatise Common Sense and late The Age of Reason, was never a signatory to any of our founding documents. However, he rejected the notion of all revelatory religion and was generally classified as a deist.

  9. #49
    Senior Member K.Bullock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    These are a selection of quotes that I included concerning the support for separation of church and state and reflect on the religious beliefs of Madison, Jefferson, Franklin and Paine:



    In looking at the religious beliefs of the signers of the Declaration of Independence there is, of necessity, a certain lack of clarity because of the nature of religion in late 18th century/early 18th century America.

    At that time may, if not most, people lived too far away from churches to attend regularly. In addition, denominational identification tended to be a little loose since distance and communication limited the contacts between individual churches and the parent organizations with which they might be affiliated in theory.

    This was particularly an issue with Congregationalists who at that time had no defined creed, but endorsed having each church set its own theological direction. Beginning in Massachusetts, but spreading to the other New England states, there was a rapid influx of Unitarian ministers who rejected notions of the deity of Christ while espousing the moral principles of the man Jesus. By 1800, all of the Congregational churches in Boston and the divinity school at Harvard had become Unitarian. More conservative Congregationalists sought to push back and began demanding that congregations adopt a basic statement of creed that recognized the divinity of Christ. About half of the Congregational churches went along with this and the other half broke off to become Unitarian. Congregationalists sued to retain ownership of the church properties, but the Courts at the time awarded ownership based on majority votes of the individual congregations. Though not as pronounced, similar struggles faced other denominations, including Anglicans or Episcopalians, where there were also large numbers of congregations that resisted central discipline and moved towards more deist creeds.

    Not surprisingly, a lot of these free thinking types were attracted to the revolutionary spirit.

    Ben Franklin was raised and educated as an Episcopalian. However, he openly proclaimed himself to be a deist.

    Jefferson was similarly raised an Episcopalian but never joined any congregation as an adult. He declared himself to be a sect of one, and petitioned the Unitarian Association to begin a congregation in Virginia that he could attend. He rejected the notion that Jesus Christ might be other than a very special man and in fact rejected almost all notion of miracles of any kind (evident in his rewrite of The Jefferson Bible.).

    John Adams was initially a Congregationalist, but became a Unitarian as the split developed in Massachusetts, rejecting the signing of a creedal statement accepting the divinity of Jesus. Adams, who was no friend to Jefferson until much later in life, made many statements of admiration for Jesus and generally called himself a Christian, but rejected the notion of any link between government and organized religion and, as noted, ultimately called himself a Unitarian.

    Robert Treat Paine, also a signatory, followed a similar path although he is less well known. He was originally a member of a Congregationalist Church but became a Unitarian when the two denominations split.

    In fact, altogether, about a quarter of the signers of the Declaration were Congregationalists (second only to Anglicans), believing in the complete autonomy of individual churches to define their own religious creeds. That made this group strong supporters of a firm separation of church and state.

    James Madison was an Episcopalian but was violently opposed to ties between government and religion and distrustful of organized religion even as he attended church while President. As noted in the quote cited previously, he stated "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

    Thomas Paine, often identified as a father of the revolution because of his publication of the treatise Common Sense and late The Age of Reason, was never a signatory to any of our founding documents. However, he rejected the notion of all revelatory religion and was generally classified as a deist.

    Jeff, one of my professors was a congregationalist and a very devout Christian ...no they are not free and easy with their profession of Christ they are however with their methods of ministry they are not as structed as say the Anglicans are.. The religious make up of the colonies was Lutheran, Baptist,Anglican/Episcopal, Catholic, Moravian, Puritans, Methodist all churches with creeds and confessions. To be sure it was an atmosphere of religious tolerance that wasn't found anywhere else. The way you are describing early America it was settled by pagans, sorry but I don't see it..

    How can you reconcile that with the Great awakening that began in 1730 by Ministers such as Johnathan Edwards certainly not a deist the same era that John Wesley began the Methodist movement of circuit riders planting churches throughout the colonies. All Confessing Christian churches.

    And I think some of the quotes you quoted would need to be qualified to be put in context. Quotes don't go to far in my estimation, I would hate for someone to find what I wrote regarding religion or even parenting 15 years ago and and after I am gone assume that was my worldview over my entire lifetime.

    http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...info/deism.htm



    Like their English counterparts, most colonial deists downplayed their distance from their orthodox neighbors. Confined to a small number of educated and generally wealthy elites, colonial deism was a largely private affair that sought to fly below the radar. Benjamin Franklin had been much taken with deist doctrines in his youth and had even published a treatise [A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain] in England on determinism with strong atheistic overtones. But Franklin quickly repented of his action and tried to suppress the distribution of his publication, considering it one of the greatest errors of his youth. Henceforth he kept his religious convictions to himself and his clubbical “pot companions” or drinking friends, and tried to present as orthodox a public appearance as possible. Like his handful of fellow colonial deists, Franklin kept a low theological profile. As a result, deism had very little impact in early America up through the American Revolution.
    Your position on the scope and presence of Deism in early America is way overstated.
    Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

  10. #50
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    Jeff
    As I have stated before I am glad there is a seperation of church and state. But that is totally different than biblical principle being tightly woven through the constitution.
    Thats why its critical to realize that someone who has a respect for the creator can put together a document that all that in which people who live under it can be free of religious terrony.
    The document enables people to be free and choose as they see fit in their pursuit of life liberty and the pursuit of happyness. It is a Godly document .period. weather it was inteded that way or not.

    I would have to study and compare the constitution against the word in
    entirety to see if any of it is contrary,,,but off hand ,,,everything I can think of paraells it.

    Man in his thoughts of lust and vanities has tendencies is to put in place rules and reg.s which make life fair to some and unfair to others.
    Unless a person is a commie or marxist or something the constitutions benefits all with fairness.

    That wasn't an accident,,,,,, Gods hand of blessing is made evident because Gods principles permiate the documents. It doesn't matter the state of mind of the framers. The chips all fell in place.

    Pete

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