I would correct as soon as the butt came off the ground!!
Depending on age of dog but probably verbal first then stick on younger pup.
Then one verbal reminder on older dog if he does it again stick with verbal command
I would correct before birds are thrown, whether its two inches or clear daylight under their butt the longer it goes unchecked the greater the chance of a break later on JMHO
I would correct before birds are thrown, whether its two inches or clear daylight under their butt the longer it goes unchecked the greater the chance of a break later on JMHO
Let's assume the dog is sitting with rear on the ground prior to calling for the first bird....then you end up with what's in the picture - do you correct prior to calling for the next bird? How do you correct?
I tend not to give a sit command even in training in a situation such as this since you can't give another sit command at a test. It's usually just a tap on the rump with the stick.
It also depends on the dog. If this dog does this everytime but never moves an inch I may hold him to that standard-especially if I get other issues due to a correction such as vocalzation or even apprehensive behavior with soft dogs. If this turns into creeping, it's an immediate correction no matter what.
I tend not to give a sit command even in training in a situation such as this since you can't give another sit command at a test. It's usually just a tap on the rump with the stick.
It also depends on the dog. If this dog does this everytime but never moves an inch I may hold him to that standard-especially if I get other issues due to a correction such as vocalzation or even apprehensive behavior with soft dogs. If this turns into creeping, it's an immediate correction no matter what.
keep high standards in training
a butt off the ground gets some kind of correction
no excuses
you come to line with dog at heal - no excuses for forging ahead
you leave the holding blind with dog - not him running ahead - no excuses
by the way I am getting crucified in local papers for opposing Wisconsin "puppy mill" legislation.
If anyone from Wisconsin is reading this please get involved in opposing this legislation.
by the way I am getting crucified in local papers for opposing Wisconsin "puppy mill" legislation.
If anyone from Wisconsin is reading this please get involved in opposing this legislation.
I have written my letters but have only found one congressman that listened to me. Unfortunately he called my home phone when I was out training as he was going into session. The rest of them are against modifying the ridiculous provisions.
I would correct pretty heavily for the creep. In both pictures the dog is well ahead of the handler.
With the dog next to me like he should be I probably wouldn't even see the butt lift. Since I don't see it I can't correct for it on anywhere near the amount of times it happens. You'll get a confused dog if you correct for it sometimes and not others. I can see the dog moving forward and that's what I'd work on.
I would correct pretty heavily for the creep. In both pictures the dog is well ahead of the handler.
With the dog next to me like he should be I probably wouldn't even see the butt lift. Since I don't see it I can't correct for it on anywhere near the amount of times it happens. You'll get a confused dog if you correct for it sometimes and not others. I can see the dog moving forward and that's what I'd work on.
I do care about the rear being "up"... It's not an option... My dogs are well versed on how they need to address the mat. It's started when they are puppies...
That reminds me..I always use a mat in training and position the dogs front feet on the front edge of the mat. If the front feet move forward, they are off the mat and the dog is corrected. I believe the presence of the mat helps the dog understand why they are being corrected.
If not corrected in training, it may lead to creeping. I would not let it go in training, would use a heeling stick , and prior to calling for next bird.
As Howard said, in a Trial / Test reheel.
A butt up or any movement forward is not permitted.Sit means sit untill I tell you to move.Just like Randy Bohn told me, if you allow a dog to move in training an inch at a trial it will be a foot or more just like the picture. My open dog, if he moves at all he pays the price. Just ask Randy, and they definitely do not get the bird. I have the bird boy pick up the bird and rethrow until they don't move.
________ WHOLE LIFE INSURANCE ADVICE
Sit means sit. No movement forward & no head swinging. The dog moves to the next bird when I cue the dog with my movement, not before. Correction for most of my dogs is a tap with the heeling stick. But I have a couple of dogs that will move more with the heeling stick so they get a low burn on the ecollar, not enough to get a physical reaction other than sit but enough to be reminded to sit instead of the tap. And the correction should be immediate, as it happens & before you call for the next bird.
I just wish I was more consistent with my corrections, as Howard & others have said, I do not see everything the dog is doing. So do as I say not as I do. Also I have one dog that goes low into a crouch with reach bird, even seems to bounce some but with no forward movement (he would be a big creeper if allowed). Early on when I insisted on no movement at all, his marking fell off dramatically so his std now is just no forward movement (as Charlotte mentioned). At a trial I get some movement on most of my dogs, esp on a close, exciting flyer. If it is significant I reheel even if the judge doesn't require it.
And there are stds coming to the line from the holding blind.....a topic for another thread.
I like Angie's comments. It's a good standard to start and uphold from the start.
However, I realize there could come a time when even if I've done this a problem dog could arise. Thankfully, I'm not to that point yet.
I've seen many discussion like this with the same sort of usual comments.
I've often heard of folks using their heeling stick on the dogs chest when doing "heeling" work. Some say it works. I've never had to do it, don't doubt their word though.
Has anyone ever thought of using the "stick" in the same manner (across the chest) for this "sit" problem or with creeping? It seems to me that if it's worked for heeling, thus teach and re-enforcing a "don't forge ahead" movement or thought process in the dog, that it could possibly work in the same manner for the above issues.
If the dog has been lifting its butt off the ground for years without consequence, but the front feet are rock solid, I wouldn't sweat it.
If the dog is creeping, it needs to be corrected. I'd step back and heel with a nick, probably dialing down the collar intensity from the field setting. Then I'd return to the holding blind, have the birds picked up and start all over.
In Lainee's pics the dog is too far ahead of the handler IMO. The butt off the ground isn't the main problem IMO, its the creeping.
If the dog has been thoroughly taught that the butt has to stay on the ground and this is only a very recent problem. I'd correct it the instant it occurred with either the stick or the collar. I'd also have the birds picked up and start over.... Otherwise, the dog may learn to tolerate the correction in order to get rewarded with the bird.
I've seen dogs that I'm convinced have learned that the following sequence is normal
I'm convinced of that, too. And, no matter what, they never take their eyes off the birds.....
Just as, I believe, at trials, before going to the line, "attitude adjustments", may make some dogs even higher. And, are therefore counter productive. ;-)
What about foot patting??? If the standard is no movement, at all.
Don't like it, but seems some dogs just need to do this. Try to take it away, they fall apart.
I don't think crouching, foot patting, always leads to creeping, breaking, it's not that absolute.
Generally, though, the standard is, no movement. Some dogs however, cannot acheive that standard.
I'd like to agree, but I've a dog that will drag his rump forward in the full sit position. He'll also do it when told to lay down. This is the first dog I've actually thought about teaching the stay command since he doesn't seem to understand the stay part when told sit or down.
I've tried teaching him the "spot" command using a platform and he very slowly getting it. The biggest problem is he's already 2 and during training he's very used to being next to the handlers side so it's very hard for him to understand.
I've tried teaching him the "spot" command using a platform and he very slowly getting it. The biggest problem is he's already 2 and during training he's very used to being next to the handlers side so it's very hard for him to understand.
Corrections don't have to be extreme for dogs that are crazy on line as stated earlier, and whips for the crazy dogs are useless(throw them away) make obedience the primary reason for training a few months and demand high standards. Obedience primary...retrieve secondary! Sit up...don't move...no noise...Be patient!! Randy Bohn (Still training the dogs they said couldn't sit still)
In addition to the platform used as suggested, I would also purposely sit & handle your dog on at least one set-up each day with your dog further back than where he is accustomed to be as the norm. For example if your dog normally sits with his shoulder at your knee, make him sit and send him with his head at your knee. This will also help with a common line problem where when you move up slightly, the dog moves up too even though you are commanding sit. I think it's because the dog has become accustomed to being at a certain position relative to your knee along with the seemingly natural tendency for the dog wanting to be further in front.
If you can get your dog comfortable with multiple sit locations relative to your knee you can help the dog significantly in certain trial set-ups, in addition to teaching sit means sit.
I think it depends on the pup's innate "chase" desire. If the desire has to be developed, early steadying could serve to hamper that development. Even with a high desire pup, too much emphasis on steadying could retard the desire. And for our American FT game it could create a problem. That said, I had to start the steadying process beginning at 12-13 wks with my last pup. But not directly for steadying purposes but because she was going to be vocal otherwise. So she didn't get to retrieve without first being quiet. Fortunately she has had ample desire & the chase/retrieveing part was never an issue.
Wish there was a scentific study,including maybe LOL, difficulty of retrieve, time it took for innate satisfaction, doubles too early, heeling corrections going to the line.
Thanks Granddaddy, I am hopeless, asking why why why.
If it was easy we would simply have champions by breeding champ to champ. 50/50 or is training 60% of the end result. Plus luck and handling skills.
Back to topic, I had a trial wise dog who lifted his bottom, due to delay in correction, I quickly asked a training partner to correct as soon as the behaviour presented itself. Then praised and delayed sending. Worked for us.
This is the age old saying of give an inch take a mile. Moving the butt of the ground is just a piece of the issue or actually the result of no correction to the creep. What the picture doesn't show is the dog probably continuing to scoot forward slowly. Both dogs are a full length plus in front of the handler. Speaking from a HRC hunt perspective this dog would probably have serious points taken off at the finish level and would probably not be called back at the grand level. As creep is in reality a safety issue in a true hunting situation as the dog would be in front of the barrel.
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