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Thread: Afgahnistan?

  1. #91
    Senior Member TXduckdog's Avatar
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    I wonder what's so upsetting about ".... this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur."

    First of all, the Emperor was not present at that signing, it was the Foreign Minister; is this an example of the revisionist history being put out in the Ivy League these days?

    It's victory or the bloodshed will never stop.
    Train the dog, the ribbons will take care of themselves.

  2. #92
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntsmanTollers View Post
    How many Iraqis have you seen interviewed on the news? Have you seen opinion polls asking if they are better now or before Hussein was overthrown? You are right writing more is a waste of time because you will never see the other side. Always believe what you see in the media. They always get the story right. The quality of life for Iraqis has not improved? Nation building takes time. The Iraqis are forming a democratic nation faster than we did especially considering that they didn't have any voice during his regime and they are just learning how to compromise and share power. You do a disservice to their dead. Most of the "dead civilians" you are referring to were killed by AQ or other warring factions trying to suppress their struggle for democracy. I have met a Police Chief here who has lost most of his family because he is supporting the new government. He has been blown up at least twice, yet he refuses to surrender and is still fighting for his dream of a democratic Iraq. I would guess from his actions and the costs he has personally endured that he would continue to fight.

    At the risk of sounding like Hew, I would ask where exactly YOU get those numbers and assumptions. I really doubt we will ever know exactly how many were killed by whom, but nonetheless, had we not started the war in Iraq, the number would likely not be nearly as high.

    Funny how you assume I get all my info from the news media. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall serving in uniform for 14 years, attending command briefings regarding JFT-SWA, and speaking with representatives from numerous Middle-eastern countries while in Riyahd and Bahrain. Be careful about "assuming", you know what they say.

    I do recall a particular opinion poll I did see on the media. It was an Iraqi reporter casting two opinions in rapid sequence of Mr. Bush's "help" in the region.

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    Dave
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  3. #93
    Senior Member HuntsmanTollers's Avatar
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    Quote from DNF "Funny how you assume I get all my info from the news media. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to recall serving in uniform for 14 years, attending command briefings regarding JFT-SWA, and speaking with representatives from numerous Middle-eastern countries while in Riyahd and Bahrain. Be careful about "assuming", you know what they say. "

    Thank you for your service. FYI, I have been in for 23 years and continue to get the briefings you are referring to. You should know the briefings don't always agree with what becomes public knowledge. Also I challenge the opinion posted by others that no apparent good has come from our involvement in Iraq. Come visit Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, or Qatar now. If you don't see the positive influence you are blind. As I have said before our enemies are willing to wait, unfortunately we are impatient. Just our presence in the region now is providing an example of the benefits of western civilization. Yes it is going to be a slow transition but the difference between now and 1991 are immense.
    Last edited by HuntsmanTollers; 08-07-2009 at 12:55 PM.
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  4. #94
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntsmanTollers View Post
    Thank you for your service. FYI, I have been in for 23 years and continue to get the briefings you are referring to. You should know the briefings don't always agree with what becomes public knowledge. Also I challenge the opinion posted by others that no apparent good has come from our involvement in Iraq. Come visit Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, or Qatar now. If you don't see the positive influence you are blind. As I have said before our enemies are willing to wait, unfortunately we are impatient. Just our presence in the region now is providing an example of the benefits of western civilization. Yes it is going to be a slow transition but the difference between now and 1991 are immense.
    Likewise, thank you for your service.
    One can find good and bad in anything, if you look for it.
    My impression from speaking with "locals" in that part of the world, is that they would rather suffer under their own leaders, than thrive under ours. We are regarded an infidels to them, inferior in every way, and doomed to everlasting hell when we die. Oh, but we come with lots of money for oil, so they tolerate us. Kinda rubs me the wrong way. As china and India become large and bigger consumers of oil, I suspect you will see their allegiance to us diminish, then we'll be wondering what we were there for. Why not let others who depend on that flow of oil contribute to the cost of "peace" in the ME?
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  5. #95
    Senior Member HuntsmanTollers's Avatar
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    DNF,

    I will tell you of my hope. Once their citizens have drunk the cool aid and have seen the benefits of western civilization they won't be able to go back. Our enemies are willing to use time against us. I just think we should be willing to use it against them. The longer they are exposed and adopt some of the practices the more they will evolve. After all ITS A SMALL WORLD and it is getting smaller daily with improvements in communication.
    Last edited by HuntsmanTollers; 08-07-2009 at 01:02 PM.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntsmanTollers View Post
    DNF,

    I will tell you of my hope. Once their citizens have drunk the cool aid and have seen the benefits of western civilization they won't be able to go back. Our enemies are willing to use time against us. I just think we should be willing to use it against them. The longer they are exposed and adopt some of the practices the more they will evolve. After all ITS A SMALL WORLD and it is getting smaller daily with improvements in communication.
    I will agree with you on that! Have you happened to have read or heard about the book, "Three Cups of Tea"? It talks of how much of Pakistan was converted to pro-Western thinking by building schools and educating people, especially young girls, to a better way of life. This guy built something like 30 schools for the price of one cruise missile, and has reaped far more in return.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  7. #97
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    It talks of how much of Pakistan was converted to pro-Western thinking by building schools and educating people, especially young girls, to a better way of life. This guy built something like 30 schools for the price of one cruise missile, and has reaped far more in return.
    Experience with a young man from mainland China who has spent 1/2 his life (since college) here in the U.S. & still has family in China & visits them. He won't go back to China, in spite of opportunity there, because his daughters could never adjust

    His opinion ... the Chinese leaders fear that the Chinese people like capitalism too much.

    I would imagine the theocracies of the Middle East fear women the most. If the women are allowed to be educated, it will be very difficult to keep them subjugated.
    G.Clinchy@gmail.com
    "Know in your heart that all things are possible. We couldn't conceive of a miracle if none ever happened." -Libby Fudim

    ​I don't use the PM feature, so just email me direct at the address shown above.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    In case you did not notice, this discussion is not about the 2002 NIE report and I have never said I agree or disagree with it. If you want to substantively discuss the merits of that report, go for it and start a new thread.

    Also, just to be clear, you maintain that I would be a hypocrite if I were to substantively agree with one NIE report more than another, right? Do you hold yourself to the same standard for determining hypocrisy? If so, then you too must either agree or disagree with all three of these reports? Which is it?
    Which is it, young feller. If'n I must start a new thread to discuss the 2002 NIE report I can't rightfully discuss whether I agree with the three reports on this thread, and if'n I discuss whether I agree or disagree with all three reports then I have violated your order to start a new thread. (sorry, was channeling "Raising Arizona")

    You're asking me if I agree with an NIE report that has been proven wrong? And why would I do that? The salient question is why would you hang your hat on the relative gospelness (if that's a word) of NIEs when an eggregiously wrong one is one of the reasons we're in Iraq now? And again, I'll ask you...since you put so much stock in NIEs then surely you have not, or ever will again, make the claim that Bush lied to get us into Iraq, right?

    Based on the first statement, I made a generalization that somehow making US citizens safer was part of the WOT being a "success". My bad. Since you now point out that you did not write or apparently intend to make the claim that we are safer because of the war in Iraq, let's move on to the question at hand. As I stated in my last post: As you point out, in your original email you listed many items of what was accomplished in Iraq and then provide a scorecard as proof that we are safer.
    I look at the list and your scorecard and suggest that most, if not all of these items were accomplished or could have been accomplished without the war in Iraq. I am sure you disagree. You're correct.
    I also would reiterate that Al Qaeda could take most of the points on your list, tweak them, and use them as their own recruiting tool. So what? The Japanese and Germans progagandized our success as we marched our way towards their capitals. Are you saying we shouldn't kill AQ lest they use it as progaganda against us?

    You clearly see Iraq as a centerpiece in the WOT. I do not. In my view it was primarily a diversion from the WOT. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. True, Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. But without 9/11 there would have been no Iraq war. Being a dangerous and destabilizing despot who supported terrorism and was known/suspected to have WMDs was a particularly bad business to be in in the aftermath of the most devastating and damaging attack ever to our country.

    Finally, you wrote:
    In the past eight years there is little or no evidence that the war in Iraq has reaped any Middle East benefits. Which of the following are not beneficial (a distinctly different question than if we could have accomplished these without war; which is totally moot since neither of us has a crystal ball)?:

    - Assured ourselves, the Middle East and the world that Saddam Hussein would never again produce and use WMDs or export them to others who would
    - Removed a dictator who was destabilizing a region crucial to our national security
    - Upheld UN sanctions (I don't particularly care about that, but that seems to be important to folks like you)
    - freed 25 million people from a tyrant who would feed his own people to plastic shredders and gas women and children
    - established a sustainable democracy in a region sorely in need of a democratic examplar. A stable, free, and democratic Middle East is a crucial US security and economic interest.
    - We established a precedent that we will not sit back and wait to be attacked before acting in our self-interests and self-preservation
    - We established that we are willing to risk national treasure in the effort to prevent rogue nations from aquiring WMDs
    - We scared the bejeebers (and the WMD aspirations) out of Libya
    - We spooked Pakistan to the extent that they dropped dime on the grandfather of their nuke program who was suspected of passing on nuke technology to rogue states
    - A military presence in Iraq and other areas of the Persian Gulf allows us to pull out of Saudia Arabia; giving us greater latitude to apply more pressure to them to stop funding militant jihadists
    - A likely unintended consequence was that Iraq served as a magnet to concentrate jihadists and make it easier to slay them in great numbers. Al Queda's reputation as a top notch terror outfit took a beating in Iraq

    I doubt that 20 years from now we will say that the war in Iraq was a pivotal event that resulted in middle east peace. I know you won't ever say that because you've invested so much energy in convincing yourself that Bush was/is wrong. Darn it! It would have been just so much easier to pass judgement now if we'd have just tucked tail and run in 2006 and let Iraq fail just like your side wanted. Sorry 'bout that.
    .............
    I'll take the river down to still water and ride a pack of dogs.

  9. #99
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    "Which is it, young feller. If'n I must start a new thread to discuss the 2002 NIE report I can't rightfully discuss whether I agree with the three reports on this thread, and if'n I discuss whether I agree or disagree with all three reports then I have violated your order to start a new thread. (sorry, was channeling "Raising Arizona""

    Give us a chance to catch your references! I had it at the first "If'n"! Good old movie...one of Cage's first hits, I think. That was my favorite scene...."Freeze....Get down!"
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  10. #100
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    "Which is it, young feller. If'n I must start a new thread to discuss the 2002 NIE report I can't rightfully discuss whether I agree with the three reports on this thread, and if'n I discuss whether I agree or disagree with all three reports then I have violated your order to start a new thread. (sorry, was channeling "Raising Arizona""

    Give us a chance to catch your references! I had it at the first "If'n"! Good old movie...one of Cage's first hits, I think. That was my favorite scene...."Freeze....Get down!"
    I knew you had to have some redeeming qualities. j/k

    That movie never gets old to me.
    I'll take the river down to still water and ride a pack of dogs.

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