What have we learned in 2063 yrs?

[Bob Gutermuth]

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be
> refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of
> officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the
> assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome
> become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
> living on public assistance." > > /- Cicero - 55 BC/
> > > > Evidently nothing!

[YardleyLabs]

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be
> refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of
> officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the
> assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome
> become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
> living on public assistance." > > /- Cicero - 55 BC/
> > > > Evidently nothing!

This keeps coming up, but no matter how often it is repeated, it still is not a quote from Cicero. Among other things, there was no such thing as public assistance in Cicero's Rome. Assistance to foreign lands would have been considered a bad joke by the people of those lands since the "assistance" came in the form of an occupying army, economic exploitation, and taxation without representation.

[dnf777]

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be
> refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of
> officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the
> assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome
> become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
> living on public assistance." > > /- Cicero - 55 BC/
> > > > Evidently nothing!

A large part of the unraveling of the Roman Empire is when they tried to occupy the Middle East.

A large part of the USSR's unraveling was due to the expense of trying to occupy/conquer the Middle East.

What was W thinking when he invaded/occupied Iraq?

As the song goes...."don't know much about history..."

[Bob Gutermuth]

Cicero may not have said it, but the quote rings true and is applicable today. Rome had public assistance, it was called the dole, during the time of Gaius Julius Caesar, likely before and after as well.

[Roger Perry]

]]]"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be[/b][/b][/B]
> refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of
> officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the
> assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome
> become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of
> living on public assistance." > > /- Cicero - 55 BC/
> > > > Evidently nothing!

Maybe you should have sent that to G W Bush!

[YardleyLabs]

As it turns out, this quote is actually from an historical fiction novel by Taylor Caldwell written in 1965. The Pillar of Iron is the novel. Taylor Caldwell was a conservative novelist who often wrote for the American Opinion, the John Birch Society's monthly publication.

[Franco]

A large part of the unraveling of the Roman Empire is when they tried to occupy the Middle East.

"

The date given for Rome's official fall is 410AD. That is when the eastern empire's capitol of Rome was sacked. The powers that were Rome at the time in the Western Empire got into the habit of payng tribute to their enemies so that they woudn't be attacked. Year after year the tribute went up and cost Rome more. Rome at the time had spinless leaders and thought that the greatness of Rome would always endure and the people of Rome bought itno this. Finally, the barabarians that were being payed tribute decide to hell with the money and sacked Rome.
Rome's influence in the mideast was never a problem for them. Harrod and the kings that succeeded him ruled with an iron fist and new they could maintain power as long as he supported Rome. In Egypt, after the death of Cleopatra, it fell into complete chaos except for where Rome had soldiers. Egypt was completely subservient to Rome until Rome fell.

In regards to the Eastern Empire, it survived for another 150 years after the fall of the west, falling to the modern day Turks.

If one could place thier finger on the biggest issues that led to Rome's fall, it would be poor government that over-spent depleting its treasury, the failure to maintain a strong army/depending on mercenaries and the apathy of the citizens of Rome.

[dnf777]

The date given for Rome's official fall is 410. That is when the eastern empire's capitol of Rome was sacked. The powers that were Rome at the time in the Western Empire got into the habit of payng tribute to their enemies so that they woudn't be attacked. Year after year the tribute went up and cost Rome more. Rome at the time had spinless leaders and thought that the greatness of Rome would always endure and the people of Rome bought itno this. Finally, the barabarians that were being payed tribute decide to hell with the money and sacked Rome.
Rome's influence in the mideast was never a problem for them. Harrod ruled with an iron fist and new he could maintain his power as long as he supported Rome. In Egypt, after the death of Cleopatra, it fell into complete chaois except for where Rome had soldiers. Egypt was completely subservient to Rome until Rome fell.

In regards to the Eastern Empire, it survived for another 150 years after the fall of the west, falling to the modern day Turks.

If one could place thier finger on the biggest issue that led to Rome's fall, it would be poor government that over-spent depleting its treasury, the failure to maintain a strong army/depending on mercenaries and the apathy of the citizens of Rome.

Yes. But overextending its military reach was a major contributor as well.
Anyway, another intersting tidbit is that the average BMI of Romans was increasing to morbid obesity levels as well, from what historians can gather from text and portrayals. In addition to our military reaches, taxation, apathy....our Twinkie Index is hitting record highs as well.

[Bob Gutermuth]

Roger, I had very few reasons to communicate with W. My biggest disagreement with him was over immigration. In any event he is not in charge at this time, and Fearless leader is the one who is spending money like a shipload of drunken sailors.

[Franco]

Yes. But overextending its military reach was a major contributor as well.
Anyway, another intersting tidbit is that the average BMI of Romans was increasing to morbid obesity levels as well, from what historians can gather from text and portrayals. In addition to our military reaches, taxation, apathy....our Twinkie Index is hitting record highs as well.

That twinkie index could be a major reason of why we now work for our government instead of the government working for us. As a nation, we have for the most part become fat, lazy and apathic. That's why we have had the leadership problems we've had for years.

P S In the east, Rome stopped at Constantenople and the near east, Judea and Egypt. They fell in the east not because they were over-strectched but because they became a soft people. Thier attempt to spread Christianity was what led to the hostility with the Muslim Turks. It was religion that did them in, not an over-streched army.

In the west, Rome still ruled Britanica and Gaul when Rome fell. That had nothing to do with the mideast.