The RetrieverTraining.Net Forums The Retriever Academy
Total Retriever Training with Mike Lardy
Hawkeye Media Gunners Up Tritronics Outdoor Media
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 24

Thread: Please!!!!

  1. #11
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    New Berlin, WI
    Posts
    10,674

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    There are several fundamental flaws in the Wall Builder web site.

    First, it jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers were Christian to the assumption that they were Biblical Christians as that term is used today. In fact several of the founding fathers, such as John Adams, were Unitarians who rejected the deity of Jesus as accepted by believers in the Trinity (i.e. Trinitarians), while accepting Jesus as a great man and prophet. Others, such as Thomas Jefferson, were deists who also rejected the notion of Jesus Christ as deity and even the notion of almost all miracles. Both deists and Unitarians also rejected the notion of any single or generally correct religious creed, accepting the notion of religion as a matter of personal conscience This belief was shared by Masons (Washington, for example) who accepted god but rejected the notion of a single creedal truth.

    Second, the site jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers and of the population were Christians to the assumption that they therefore intended to create a Christian nation. It is not that the founding fathers were not religious; they were. However, religion was if anything less important in the lives of the peole than it is today. Relatively few people attended church with any regularity and denominations were fairly loosely organized. It was not until the mid-19th century that evangelists began to become a greater force in politics, and that is actually when the trappings of religion began to enter government practice (e.g., the inclusion of "In God We Trust" on currency.).

    Finally, the site discusses in David Barton's essay how the nation is Christian even though all of the written documents prohibit the government from respecting establishment of religion. In a paragraph I find curious, he writes:

    "Christianity is the religion that shaped America and made her what she is today. In fact, historically speaking, it can be irrefutably demonstrated that Biblical Christianity in America produced many of the cherished traditions still enjoyed today, including:
    • A republican rather than a theocratic form of government;
    • The institutional separation of church and state (as opposed to today’s enforced institutional secularization of church and state);
    • Protection for religious toleration and the rights of conscience;
    • A distinction between theology and behavior, thus allowing the incorporation into public policy of religious principles that promote good behavior but which do not enforce theological tenets (examples of this would include religious teachings such as the Good Samaritan, The Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, etc., all of which promote positive civil behavior but do not impose ecclesiastical rites); and
    • A free-market approach to religion, thus ensuring religious diversity.
    Consequently, a Christian nation as demonstrated by the American experience is a nation founded upon Christian and Biblical principles, whose values, society, and institutions have largely been shaped by those principles. " [Emphasis added]

    If I read this correctly he seems to be arguing that the irrefutable proof that our country is Christian is that it was founded on a set of principles designed to ensure religious diversity and avoid linkage to any specific faith. Given that no Christian belief espoused such a set of principles at the time, I wonder how this proof became irrefutable. Is it irrefutable solely because it is illogical and unfounded?

    At the time of the Revolution, most Christians were anything but democratic or republican in their beliefs. Most lived in countries where royalty ruled with what was believed to be a devine mandate. If you are looking for the moral foundations of the Revolution, you will do better at looking at the philosophical writings of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Pasteur, Descartes, and other fathers of the Age of Reason rather than towards the Bible.
    Funny, you state it has many flaws, then quote a statement out of context because it supports your position.

    LMAO!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  2. #12
    Senior Member JDogger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    MRGV New Mexico
    Posts
    3,327

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Well, there ya go. Nothing about religion can be discussed when there are Christians and Muslims involved in the discussion.

    Like I said earlier, this thread is a waste becuase no one is going to change anyone's mind.

    Some folks just have to wear their religion on thier sleeve.
    Sooo... I log on for the first time in a while and OMG, I agree with Booty! My descent into conservatism has begun.
    If we cannot discuss Christians and Muslims, maybe we could discuss some alternatives, namely;
    Buddhists, Confucianists, Shintoists, Taoists, Hinduists, Jainists, just to touch on a few. Let's not forget the great Pagan traditions of Western Europe as well. Makes the Christian vs. Muslim debate kinda whither, huh?
    Just who are those folks without sleeves regards,

    JD
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  3. #13
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lafayette, La.
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post

    Sooo... I log on for the first time in a while and OMG, I agree with Booty!
    Glad I could turn the flashlight on for you.

    Welcome to conservatism! Real Conservative don't get caught up in the issues that governemnt shoudn't be concerned with. Real Conservatives would have this country running at budget, protecting The Constitution and its people and providing the infastructure for commerce. PERIOD!

    We need less gooberment, not more!
    It's such a shame that in the USA, defending Liberty has become such a heroic deed.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Steve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    620

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    Bunch of damn liberals...what did they know?
    That was back when being a liberal was a postive attribute. Nowdays, those who claim to be liberals are really statists of every bad flavor.
    Kelly, Weis, Willingham, & Davies

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    bryant, Arkansas
    Posts
    140

    Default

    Any man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still!

    Regards,
    Martin

  6. #16
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Western Pa
    Posts
    6,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Glad I could turn the flashlight on for you.

    Welcome to conservatism! Real Conservative don't get caught up in the issues that governemnt shoudn't be concerned with. Real Conservatives would have this country running at budget, protecting The Constitution and its people and providing the infastructure for commerce. PERIOD!

    We need less gooberment, not more!
    Just curious...who was the last good conservative President? By the standards you mention above, I shudder to think Clinton would be your pick??
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  7. #17
    Senior Member JDogger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    MRGV New Mexico
    Posts
    3,327

    Default

    If ye be an anvil, hold ye still.
    If ye be a hammer, strike your fill.

    JD
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  8. #18
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lafayette, La.
    Posts
    10,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    Just curious...who was the last good conservative President? By the standards you mention above, I shudder to think Clinton would be your pick??
    The last U S President to fit that bill would be Thomas Jefferson, a true believer in a small Federal government. He did slip once and wore a big government hat when he decided on his own to purchase Louisiana from the French. He was also accused of over-stepping his authority by spending the money to sent Lewis and Clark into the new American territory.

    It was his ideals that should be the templete for all U S Presidents.
    It's such a shame that in the USA, defending Liberty has become such a heroic deed.

  9. #19
    Senior Member K G's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    southeast us
    Posts
    5,354

    Default

    I would agree with that except for his cowardice in dealing with the crime of slavery....

    Reagan gets my vote regards,

    kg
    I keep my PM box full. Use email to contact me: rockytopkg@aol.com.

  10. #20
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    West Twin Cities Metro, MN
    Posts
    2,119

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by K G View Post
    I would agree with that except for his cowardice in dealing with the crime of slavery....

    Reagan gets my vote regards,

    kg
    Reagan wasn't so conservative. He is usually cast along with Maggie Thatcher as a neo-liberal.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •