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Thread: Please!!!!

  1. #1
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Default Please!!!!

    Take a moment and review this website.
    It contradicts a lot of what has been said (even on this site) by those who beleive that the Untied States of America is not a Christian nation.
    Many of these men's quotes are from their original writings.
    It is my impression that many here will enjoy this site and it's offerings.

    http://www.wallbuilders.com/default.asp


    Maybe Mr. Yardley can "debunk" this for us??

    stan b

    (BTW---Your welcome for this link)
    Last edited by road kill; 08-03-2009 at 03:08 PM.
    Stan b & Elvis

  2. #2
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Default

    This has actually been discussed ad nauseum. See for example:

    http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...hers+christian

  3. #3
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Default

    Well I am reopening the discussion.

    Thank you!
    Stan b & Elvis

  4. #4
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    Take a moment and review these websites.
    http://www.borndigital.com/founders.htm
    http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
    http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/
    http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ts.html?cat=37

    They contradict a lot of what has been said (even on this site) by those who believe and by those who disbelieve that the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation.......

  5. #5
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    I'm tempted but this subject has been beaten like a whipped pony to death.

    No one is going to change anyone's mind.

    On of the beauties of this country is that folks are free to beleive in whatever they want to. It's just when folks aren't sure of what they believe in that they have to get everyone else's approval.

    That website is VERY suspect.

    Oh, and again Thomas Jefferson was a Deist.
    The Libertarian Party believes that all persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. A call for the repeal of the income tax, abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes. LP.org

  6. #6
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    I'm tempted but this subject has been beaten like a whipped pony to death.

    No one is going to change anyone's mind.

    On of the beauties of this country is that folks are free to beleive in whatever they want to. It's just when folks aren't sure of what they believe in that they have to get everyone else's approval.

    That website is VERY suspect.

    Oh, and again Thomas Jefferson was a Deist.
    "Whip it good!"

    "We are not men......"
    Stan b & Elvis

  7. #7
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Well I am reopening the discussion.

    Thank you!
    There are several fundamental flaws in the Wall Builder web site.

    First, it jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers were Christian to the assumption that they were Biblical Christians as that term is used today. In fact several of the founding fathers, such as John Adams, were Unitarians who rejected the deity of Jesus as accepted by believers in the Trinity (i.e. Trinitarians), while accepting Jesus as a great man and prophet. Others, such as Thomas Jefferson, were deists who also rejected the notion of Jesus Christ as deity and even the notion of almost all miracles. Both deists and Unitarians also rejected the notion of any single or generally correct religious creed, accepting the notion of religion as a matter of personal conscience This belief was shared by Masons (Washington, for example) who accepted god but rejected the notion of a single creedal truth.

    Second, the site jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers and of the population were Christians to the assumption that they therefore intended to create a Christian nation. It is not that the founding fathers were not religious; they were. However, religion was if anything less important in the lives of the peole than it is today. Relatively few people attended church with any regularity and denominations were fairly loosely organized. It was not until the mid-19th century that evangelists began to become a greater force in politics, and that is actually when the trappings of religion began to enter government practice (e.g., the inclusion of "In God We Trust" on currency.).

    Finally, the site discusses in David Barton's essay how the nation is Christian even though all of the written documents prohibit the government from respecting establishment of religion. In a paragraph I find curious, he writes:

    "Christianity is the religion that shaped America and made her what she is today. In fact, historically speaking, it can be irrefutably demonstrated that Biblical Christianity in America produced many of the cherished traditions still enjoyed today, including:
    • A republican rather than a theocratic form of government;
    • The institutional separation of church and state (as opposed to today’s enforced institutional secularization of church and state);
    • Protection for religious toleration and the rights of conscience;
    • A distinction between theology and behavior, thus allowing the incorporation into public policy of religious principles that promote good behavior but which do not enforce theological tenets (examples of this would include religious teachings such as the Good Samaritan, The Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, etc., all of which promote positive civil behavior but do not impose ecclesiastical rites); and
    • A free-market approach to religion, thus ensuring religious diversity.
    Consequently, a Christian nation as demonstrated by the American experience is a nation founded upon Christian and Biblical principles, whose values, society, and institutions have largely been shaped by those principles. " [Emphasis added]

    If I read this correctly he seems to be arguing that the irrefutable proof that our country is Christian is that it was founded on a set of principles designed to ensure religious diversity and avoid linkage to any specific faith. Given that no Christian belief espoused such a set of principles at the time, I wonder how this proof became irrefutable. Is it irrefutable solely because it is illogical and unfounded?

    At the time of the Revolution, most Christians were anything but democratic or republican in their beliefs. Most lived in countries where royalty ruled with what was believed to be a devine mandate. If you are looking for the moral foundations of the Revolution, you will do better at looking at the philosophical writings of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Pasteur, Descartes, and other fathers of the Age of Reason rather than towards the Bible.

  8. #8
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    There are several fundamental flaws in the Wall Builder web site.

    First, it jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers were Christian to the assumption that they were Biblical Christians as that term is used today. In fact several of the founding fathers, such as John Adams, were Unitarians who rejected the deity of Jesus as accepted by believers in the Trinity (i.e. Trinitarians), while accepting Jesus as a great man and prophet. Others, such as Thomas Jefferson, were deists who also rejected the notion of Jesus Christ as deity and even the notion of almost all miracles. Both deists and Unitarians also rejected the notion of any single or generally correct religious creed, accepting the notion of religion as a matter of personal conscience This belief was shared by Masons (Washington, for example) who accepted god but rejected the notion of a single creedal truth.

    Second, the site jumps from the observation that most of the founding fathers and of the population were Christians to the assumption that they therefore intended to create a Christian nation. It is not that the founding fathers were not religious; they were. However, religion was if anything less important in the lives of the peole than it is today. Relatively few people attended church with any regularity and denominations were fairly loosely organized. It was not until the mid-19th century that evangelists began to become a greater force in politics, and that is actually when the trappings of religion began to enter government practice (e.g., the inclusion of "In God We Trust" on currency.).

    Finally, the site discusses in David Barton's essay how the nation is Christian even though all of the written documents prohibit the government from respecting establishment of religion. In a paragraph I find curious, he writes:

    "Christianity is the religion that shaped America and made her what she is today. In fact, historically speaking, it can be irrefutably demonstrated that Biblical Christianity in America produced many of the cherished traditions still enjoyed today, including:
    • A republican rather than a theocratic form of government;
    • The institutional separation of church and state (as opposed to today’s enforced institutional secularization of church and state);
    • Protection for religious toleration and the rights of conscience;
    • A distinction between theology and behavior, thus allowing the incorporation into public policy of religious principles that promote good behavior but which do not enforce theological tenets (examples of this would include religious teachings such as the Good Samaritan, The Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, etc., all of which promote positive civil behavior but do not impose ecclesiastical rites); and
    • A free-market approach to religion, thus ensuring religious diversity.
    Consequently, a Christian nation as demonstrated by the American experience is a nation founded upon Christian and Biblical principles, whose values, society, and institutions have largely been shaped by those principles. " [Emphasis added]

    If I read this correctly he seems to be arguing that the irrefutable proof that our country is Christian is that it was founded on a set of principles designed to ensure religious diversity and avoid linkage to any specific faith. Given that no Christian belief espoused such a set of principles at the time, I wonder how this proof became irrefutable. Is it irrefutable solely because it is illogical and unfounded?

    At the time of the Revolution, most Christians were anything but democratic or republican in their beliefs. Most lived in countries where royalty ruled with what was believed to be a devine mandate. If you are looking for the moral foundations of the Revolution, you will do better at looking at the philosophical writings of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Pasteur, Descartes, and other fathers of the Age of Reason rather than towards the Bible.
    Anything that does not lean HARD to the left is flawed to you.
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #9
    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Default

    Well, there ya go. Nothing about religion can be discussed when there are Christians and Muslims involved in the discussion.

    Like I said earlier, this thread is a waste becuase no one is going to change anyone's mind.

    Some folks just have to wear their religion on thier sleeve.
    The Libertarian Party believes that all persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. A call for the repeal of the income tax, abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes. LP.org

  10. #10
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    If you are looking for the moral foundations of the Revolution, you will do better at looking at the philosophical writings of John Locke, Thomas Paine, Pasteur, Descartes, and other fathers of the Age of Reason rather than towards the Bible.
    Bunch of damn liberals...what did they know?
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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