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Thread: Osamacare dirty secret #2

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bob Gutermuth's Avatar
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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gutermuth View Post
    Yeah but "Zeke"is pure, the "blow-viater" said so!!
    Stan b & Elvis

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Yeah but "Zeke"is pure, the "blow-viater" said so!!
    Is a man unethical because you don't agree with what he says (or if Chuck Norris doesn't agree with what he says)?

    Zeke's book actually says that choice is an essential element of any health care plan. He says that if you want to pass comprehensive health care reform, it is essential to strike when you are able. He says that the there are seven "pillars" for a good plan and that the balance of a bills provisions are basically details that can be sorted over time. The seven pillars are:

    1. Coverage of all Americans
    2. Effective cost control
    3. High quality coordinated care.
    4. Choice of insurance plans, doctors, and hospitals along with the ability to buy additional insurance coverage
    5. Fair funding requiring all Americans to contribute to the cost of services
    6. Reasonable dispute resolution to replace the current malpractice system
    7. Economic revitalization from removing health insurance as a responsibility of employers.
    These are all debatable, but hardly the makings of a conspiracy or "dirty secret".

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    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Is a man unethical because you don't agree with what he says (or if Chuck Norris doesn't agree with what he says)?

    Zeke's book actually says that choice is an essential element of any health care plan. He says that if you want to pass comprehensive health care reform, it is essential to strike when you are able. He says that the there are seven "pillars" for a good plan and that the balance of a bills provisions are basically details that can be sorted over time. The seven pillars are:

    1. Coverage of all Americans
    2. Effective cost control
    3. High quality coordinated care.
    4. Choice of insurance plans, doctors, and hospitals along with the ability to buy additional insurance coverage
    5. Fair funding requiring all Americans to contribute to the cost of services
    6. Reasonable dispute resolution to replace the current malpractice system
    7. Economic revitalization from removing health insurance as a responsibility of employers.
    These are all debatable, but hardly the makings of a conspiracy or "dirty secret".
    A man is not "pure" of ethiucs if his are radical and outside the norm.

    Zeke is clearly outside the norm.

    Is he pure of ethics to you if he is a left winger??

    Sorry, rhetorical question.......
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #5
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    A man is not "pure" of ethiucs if his are radical and outside the norm.

    Zeke is clearly outside the norm.

    Is he pure of ethics to you if he is a left winger??

    Sorry, rhetorical question.......
    Actually, by your definition of ethics and your definition of your own politics (extreme right), it sounds like you're saying that your own ethics should be questioned since I interpret extreme right as radical and outside the norm. However, I am not questioning your ethics since I disagree with your definition.

    Personally, I think ethics rest in how you do things, not why. You can be an ethical conservative or an ethical progressive. You can be an ethical Christian, an ethical Muslim or an ethical atheist. You become unethical when you decide that the inherent "goodness" of your goals justifies actions that would otherwise be unacceptable. Zeke Emanuel appears to state his positions clearly and in an intellectually honest manner. He does not appear to misquote others or take what they say out of context. He does not hide his own beliefs or biases. His positions appear to be reasoned and measured whether one agrees with them or not. I do not know enough about his life or activities to comment further. However, to me he appears far more ethical than almost anyone posturing on the issues on television, in blogs, and most in Congress.

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    Senior Member Franco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post

    Zeke's book actually says that choice is an essential element of any health care plan. He says that if you want to pass comprehensive health care reform, it is essential to strike when you are able. He says that the there are seven "pillars" for a good plan and that the balance of a bills provisions are basically details that can be sorted over time. The seven pillars are:
    1. Coverage of all Americans
    2. Effective cost control
    3. High quality coordinated care.
    4. Choice of insurance plans, doctors, and hospitals along with the ability to buy additional insurance coverage
    5. Fair funding requiring all Americans to contribute to the cost of services
    6. Reasonable dispute resolution to replace the current malpractice system
    7. Economic revitalization from removing health insurance as a responsibility of employers.
    These are all debatable, but hardly the makings of a conspiracy or "dirty secret".
    Pillar 1- What about all the illegals that are not Americans? By law, a hospital can not refuse taking them in. Many hospitals are facing bankrupcy because the cost of serving illegals is not reinburst by the goobs. I say, "no insurnace, no hospital service". Poor Americans can go to any one of the thousands of charitable hospitals available.

    Pillar 2- Cost Control. This is a concept foreign to our government. We can NOt trust them to oversee Cost Control.

    Pillar 3-High Quality Care, that's what we have now and that's what we won't have once the bearucrats take over.

    Pillar 4 -We have choice of health care now. The goobs can only screw that up.

    Pillar 5 Fair Funding Who is going to pay for the folks with no money. I don't think it fair that I have to pay for them!

    Pillar 6 Yes, we need Tort Reform but, we don't need to gooberment to oversee it because only the gooberment can make it worse.

    Pillar 7- Having employers pay part of the cost of Heath Insurance is a nice perk for those that WORK FOR A LIVING!
    Last edited by Franco; 08-17-2009 at 09:58 PM.
    It's time we abandon our party affiliations and rather than being good Dems or good Repubs we all become good Americans. MJH345

  7. #7
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Pillar 1- What about all the illegals that are not Americans? By law, a hospital can not refuse taking them in. Many hospitals are facing bankrupcy because the cost of serving illegals is not reinburst by the goobs. I say, "no insurnace, no hospital service". Poor Americans can go to any one of the thousands of charitable hospitals available.

    The illegals do pose a large problem for a social program like proposed universal health care insurance. Since O felt he had to put all his "important" stuff out during the "honeymoon", solving the illegal problem should also be a top priority ... perhaps the 6th pillar of a sound plan?

    However, since O has advocated amnesty, this might likely upset a fair number of people who might otherwise have favorable feelings about the health care proposal.

    Pillar 2- Cost Control. This is a concept foreign to our government. We can NOt trust them to oversee Cost Control.

    Amen!

    Pillar 3-High Quality Care, that's what we have now and that's what we won't have once the bearucrats take over.

    I would agree ... the issue is more that not all people have equal access to the high quality care that is available. I don't believe that any of the existing programs have really solved that problem. This would be evidenced by the numbers of people who come to the U.S. for care. And it is also true, I believe, that in those countries with universal programs, those who have personal funds get better care than those of modest means, because they have the extra $ that is needed to get the care on a private basis (if it is available in their own country).


    Pillar 4 -We have choice of health care now. The goobs can only screw that up.

    I will admit that the Medicare system is not ALL bad ... but the govt has not been really good at controlling costs; and O, himself, has said it is on the verge of bankruptcy. Refer to #2.

    Like a Ponzi scheme, it "seems" to work at the beginning when more people are paying in than drawing out. If the excess funds at the outset were wisely invested, they might have been able to make it work. Same with SS. However, legislators have a hard time letting excess funds lay around un-used. They forget that they are there for the expenses that will materialize later.

    Pillar 5 Fair Funding Who is going to pay for the folks with no money. I don't think it fair that I have to pay for them!

    Even with fairness aside, finite funds can only go so far in their distribution. Eventually, more wealth has to be generated to keep thnigs working. The government simply generates wealth by taxing citizens. It is the citizens who must generate the wealth to feed the government coffers.

    Pillar 6 Yes, we need Tort Reform but, we don't need to gooberment to oversee it because only the gooberment can make it worse.

    Most of our govt people are lawyers themselves. This is true at many state legislatures as well. Their track records don't prove they can do it.

    Pillar 7- Having employers pay part of the cost of Heath Insurance is a nice perk for those that WORK FOR A LIVING!
    The self-employed have been paying for their own health insurance for a long time without a tax break except more recently as a Schedule A deduction. However, as the cap gets raised on the Schedule A tax deduction, less of that personal outlay will be high enough to get any benefit.

    Seems only fair that health insurance perks should be taxed ... like any other monetary bonus. The unions might not be happy with that, though. Some union workers get their health benefits through their union, rather than employer. They might not mind. OTOH, if union workers get taxed on employer-paid health benefits, then they will want to "replace" that $ for their workers through higher wages in their negotiations.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Pillar 1- What about all the illegals that are not Americans? By law, a hospital can not refuse taking them in. Many hospitals are facing bankrupcy because the cost of serving illegals is not reinburst by the goobs. I say, "no insurnace, no hospital service". Poor Americans can go to any one of the thousands of charitable hospitals available.

    Pillar 2- Cost Control. This is a concept foreign to our government. We can NOt trust them to oversee Cost Control.

    Pillar 3-High Quality Care, that's what we have now and that's what we won't have once the bearucrats take over.

    Pillar 4 -We have choice of health care now. The goobs can only screw that up.

    Pillar 5 Fair Funding Who is going to pay for the folks with no money. I don't think it fair that I have to pay for them!

    Pillar 6 Yes, we need Tort Reform but, we don't need to gooberment to oversee it because only the gooberment can make it worse.

    Pillar 7- Having employers pay part of the cost of Heath Insurance is a nice perk for those that WORK FOR A LIVING!
    There is only 1 pillar at work here.

    Take money from those that have it and give it to those that don't.
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #9
    Senior Member Steve Amrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerry Clinchy View Post
    The self-employed have been paying for their own health insurance for a long time without a tax break except more recently as a Schedule A deduction. However, as the cap gets raised on the Schedule A tax deduction, less of that personal outlay will be high enough to get any benefit.

    Seems only fair that health insurance perks should be taxed ... like any other monetary bonus. The unions might not be happy with that, though. Some union workers get their health benefits through their union, rather than employer. They might not mind. OTOH, if union workers get taxed on employer-paid health benefits, then they will want to "replace" that $ for their workers through higher wages in their negotiations.

    As a employer what ever cost is FORCED on me will be passed on to the employees. Business is so competitive that we are bidding and losing work right now. If it stays bad enough long enough those bidding work at or below cost will be gone and prices will stabilize. Then we can raise prices and saleries. Maybe if business got a tax break for providing insurance.........
    "Communism only works in Heaven, where they don't need it, and in Hell, where they already have it" Ronald Reagan

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