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Thread: Florida GOP Chair, Bat Crap Crazy????

  1. #31
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    You wrote: "Either you made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up."

    My bad. You did give me the option of either being a liar or repeating a lie.
    You have to always allow for the option that the person you're dealing with could be misinformed. I don't think Greer is misinformed, I think he's a liar.


    I was commenting on this statement that you made:


    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    Would you have been OK to have had Bush address every public school child and telling them the importance of listening to what the President says and then having the children discuss ways in which they could help the President?
    I had read all the curriculum suggestions and nowhere did I see that they were to discuss ways in which they could help the president. I didn't see anything that in there anywhere. In fact this is the only instance I can find of the word "help."

    What can students do to help in our schools?

    I assumed that by asking me if I'd be upset if Bush asked children to discuss way in which they could help the president, you were saying that the curriculum stated that this is what Obama would do. Maybe I was wrong...
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    I would be inclined to be against any President speaking en masse to every public school child in America. It appears unseemly. Orwellian. Kim Jong Il-like. It is completely different than a President standing up in front of a school assembly or speaking at a commencement ceremony.
    Or more "Chavez-like".....

    http://www.heritage.org/research/edu.../ednotes88.cfm

  3. #33
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    To step back a bit to when I commented that I felt that the second paragraph of the Secretary's letter was unnecessary and inappropriate. Buzz replied:

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Maybe unnecessary, but I don't know about inappropriate. All she's doing is tooting his horn a little, stating that despite the major challenges facing the president, he is still focused and committed to education.

    ...
    I think what made me uncomfortable with that paragraph is the same thing that make Hew feel that it is a little creepy for the President -- regardless of politics -- to be speaking to all the nation's school children during class/assembly time and for Paul Kartes, in the other thread, to be voicing similar reservations.

    Once nominated and confirmed, the Secretary of Education has a position responsibility to act as a voice for Education, not as a voice for the President. I know it would be naive to think this will ever happen completely, but it is an important distinction for all Cabinet positions and for certain other major governmental positions (Chairman of the Fed, Supreme Court Justice, etc.). By asking for people to research the President's former speeches on education -- most of which were given on the campaign trail -- and repeatedly mentioning Obama by name, the Secretary comes across as a political hack tooting the President's horn. That is not a new offense from Washington under either party, but it is still an offense.

    Having said that, I think that the President, as an office and a symbol, should have something to say about education at a very high level and that this President has demonstrated a willingness to deliver a message of personal responsibility that often get lost in discussions about government. Beyond that, for many of our citizens he may awaken the notion, for the first time in their lives, that ours is a nation where anyone can aspire to become President (at least, as long as they can provide the appropriate birth certificate).

    Eisenhower, in the 1950's, made education and particularly education in the sciences and math, a truly national priority. That type of leadership was important and made a difference. I believe that we are now in a situation where education needs a similar emphasis. We are falling behind as a country and a big part of our problem is that both parents and children seem to think that education is someone else's responsibility. We are too passive, and too willing to substitute dogma for thought.

    If exhortations from the President, reinforced with appropriate lesson plans, can actually help focus on the values of personal responsibility and perseverance, I would welcome that message from anyone. If such a message becomes entangled in a cult of personality, it deserves repudiation by all. I will listen to the message and hope that Obama comes down on the right side.

    EDIT: BTW, when I was young, Eisenhower's photo was in every classroom in my public school. When I moved to PA, Reagan's picture was posted in my daughter's classroom. Were those photos appropriate? Would photos of Obama be appropriate? I don't know if schools still post pictures of the President -- now I feel old again.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 09-02-2009 at 06:36 PM.

  4. #34
    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    Oh, the outrage. Buzz, I'm sure you would have been just fine with every public school child being propped in front of a TV to hear George Bush tell them why it is important to listen to what the President says and then being asked by their teachers to come up with ways in which they can help the President. Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggghhhhhhhhht.

    btw, Arne Duncan is a man.
    If the kids get to ask questions, I hope Bush would have them scripted or have someone to explain them to him.

    Is our kids learnin' regards,
    dave
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

  5. #35
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Buzz,

    A recap of our discussion.... I said I didn't like some specific items in the curriculum. You said those items didn't exist in the curriculum and that I either made them up or repeated somebody else's made up story. I provided a link to the curriculum that had the specific items that I stated and that you denied existed. I don't see how all of that is apparently more complicated than Chinese arithmetic.

    In the link I previously provided you'll find the following written in the curriculum:

    Third bullet point in Before the Speech:

    Why is it important that we listen to the President and other elected officials, like the mayor, senators, members of congress or the governor. Why is what they say important?
    2nd page, 2nd bullet point in Extension of the Speech:

    Write letters to themselves about what they can do to help the president.
    I'll take the river down to still water and ride a pack of dogs.

  6. #36
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hew View Post
    Buzz,

    A recap of our discussion.... I said I didn't like some specific items in the curriculum. You said those items didn't exist in the curriculum and that I either made them up or repeated somebody else's made up story. I provided a link to the curriculum that had the specific items that I stated and that you denied existed. I don't see how all of that is apparently more complicated than Chinese arithmetic.

    In the link I previously provided you'll find the following written in the curriculum:

    Third bullet point in Before the Speech:



    2nd page, 2nd bullet point in Extension of the Speech:
    Fair enough. I don't like those items either. I always taught my children to trust their own brains and not to assume that someone knew what they were talking about just because they help a position of authority.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Fair enough. I don't like those items either. I always taught my children to trust their own brains and not to assume that someone knew what they were talking about just because they help a position of authority.
    No, it's NOT FAIR ENOUGH. If you would read the PDF files from the official website, you would see that the second bullet point is NOT WORDED THE WAY HEW HAS IT!!!! I don't know where he got that from, BUT IT ISN'T IN THE OFFICIAL CURRICULUM!!! That's what I'm talking about, and that's why I started this thread in the first place. Someone is making crap up, and it's what I see happening over and over and over in political discussion in this country. Tell a lie enough times and it becomes the truth, the sin that a$$hat John Griffing accuses Obama of in his nutty article posted in the other thread, The Prince of Lies. It's a tactic that the GOP has developed into a fine art. The actual wording is as follows, and you can go to the link that I provide at the government website to verify it:

    http://www.ed.gov/teachers/how/lessons/prek-6.pdf

    Extension of the Speech
    Teachers could extend learning by having students:

    • Create posters of their goals. Posters could be formatted in quadrants, puzzle pieces, or trails marked with the following labels: personal, academic, community, and country. Each area could be labeled with three steps for achieving goals in that area. It might make sense to focus first on personal and academic goals so that community and country goals can be more readily created.

    • Write letters to themselves about how they can achieve their short‐term and long‐term education goals. Teachers would collect and redistribute these letters at an appropriate later date to enable students to monitor their progress.

    • Write goals on colored index cards or precut designs to post around the classroom.

    • Interview one another and share goals with the class to create a supportive community.

    • Participate in school‐wide incentive programs or contests for those students who achieve their goals.

    • Write about their goals in a variety of genres, such as poems, songs, and personal essays.

    • Create artistic projects based on the themes of their goals.

    • Graph individual progress toward goals.
    It doesn't say one word about helping the president. It's about making them think about what they can do to achieve their goals, EDUCATIONAL GOALS!

    Now, lets look at the section, before the speech.

    Before the Speech

    • Teachers can build background knowledge about the President of the United States and his speech by reading books about presidents and Barack Obama. Teachers could motivate students by asking the following questions:
    Who is the President of the United States?
    What do you think it takes to be president?
    To whom do you think the president is going to be speaking?
    Why do you think he wants to speak to you?
    What do you think he will say to you?

    • Teachers can ask students to imagine that they are delivering a speech to all of the students in the United States.
    If you were the president, what would you tell students?
    What can students do to help in our schools?
    Teachers can chart ideas about what students would say.

    • Why is it important that we listen to the president and other elected officials, like the mayor, senators, members of congress, or the governor? Why is what they say important?
    We can debate about whether it's ok to build knowledge about the president by reading books about presidents and Obama. Maybe you want your kids to grow up to be the running joke, "man on the street" where you ask them questions that you'd think anyone should know, and they are clueless.

    We can also debate about the wisdom of teaching them that it's important to listen to elected officials. The fact is they said elected officials, not Democrat elected officials. If you want your kids to grow up and not listen to what their government is saying and not doing their civic duty by not educating themselves about what's going on and making informed decisions before they go to the ballot box, that's fine. I don't want that for my daughter.

    There is a difference between LISTENING TO THEM and BLINDLY DOING WHAT THEY TELL YOU TO DO. I guess we can debate all day about whether it was worded by a lawyer in such a way that it couldn't be taken more than one way or not.
    Last edited by Buzz; 09-03-2009 at 09:34 AM.
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
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    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
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    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Buzz's Avatar
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    I see why I can't seem to figure out what the heck Hew is talking about. He is using a document from an outfit called docstoc. I don't know anything about these guys, but this is from their website:

    Docstoc is the premier online community and marketplace to find and share professional documents. Docstoc provides the platform to upload and share documents with the world, and serves as a vast repository of free and for purchase legal, business, financial, technical, and educational documents that can be easily searched, previewed and downloaded.

    Docstoc also provides technology through various APIs and Widgets to help facilitate the sharing and promotion of documents across the web. The site has popularized the use of embedding documents throughout the blogosphere and mainstream media. You can learn more about embedding documents here: http://blog.docstoc.com/embed-docume...r-webiste.html

    Docstoc, Inc was founded by Jason Nazar (bio) and Alon Shwartz (bio). The company was selected in September of 2007 to debut its product at the prestigious TechCrunch40 Conference. The product was subsequently launched to the public in November 2007.

    Docstoc is a venture backed company (Rustic Canyon) and received funding from the co-founders/investors in MySpace, LowerMyBills, Mp3.com, PriceGrabber and Baidu. Their legal counsel is DLA Piper. The company is located in Santa Monica, CA.
    I don't know how we can have a legitimate debate based on a document that was uploaded by God knows who onto an outfit like this. I am arguing from the ORIGINAL document from the Department of Education website. The ORIGINAL document for "classroom activities" can be found here:

    http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html

    I believe that document was tampered with and loaded onto docstoc so that nut cases could link to it, instead of the ORIGINAL, so they could cause a controversy where none exists.

    Be careful about what information you believe from the internets.

    Hew, where did you get that link from? I would love to see the source.

    Dave
    "For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48

    Raven - Moneybird's Black Magic Marker***
    (Esprit's Power Play x Trumarc's Lean Cuisine)
    Mick - Moneybird's Jumpin' Jack Flash***
    (Clubmead's Road Warrior x Oakdale Whitewater Devil Dog)
    Peerless - Moneybird's Sole Survivor
    (Two River's Lucky Willie x Moneybird's Black Magic Marker)

  9. #39
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    I see why I can't seem to figure out what the heck Hew is talking about. He is using a document from an outfit called docstoc. I don't know anything about these guys, but this is from their website:



    I don't know how we can have a legitimate debate based on a document that was uploaded by God knows who onto an outfit like this. I am arguing from the ORIGINAL document from the Department of Education website. The ORIGINAL document for "classroom activities" can be found here:

    http://www.ed.gov/admins/lead/academic/bts.html

    I believe that document was tampered with and loaded onto docstoc so that nut cases could link to it, instead of the ORIGINAL, so they could cause a controversy where none exists.

    Be careful about what information you believe from the internets.

    Hew, where did you get that link from? I would love to see the source.

    Dave
    I suspect that you would actually find that the first documents released were the ones uploaded to docstor and that these were subsequently revised on the Education Department web site. You are correct that the official current documents are the ones on the Education Department web site. By assuming a nefarious attempt to distort those documents I think you are risking falling into the same conspiracy theory mindset that distorts so much of the right wing commentary.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Hew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I suspect that you would actually find that the first documents released were the ones uploaded to docstor and that these were subsequently revised on the Education Department web site. You are correct that the official current documents are the ones on the Education Department web site. By assuming a nefarious attempt to distort those documents I think you are risking falling into the same conspiracy theory mindset that distorts so much of the right wing commentary.
    Exactly. Someone wrote on docstor that the Dept. of Ed. has changed the document three times in the last two days (I don't know with certainty that that is true, but the evidence suggests that they've changed it at least once).

    So no, Buzz, you're not arguing based on the ORIGINAL document. You're arguing on the current document. Hopefully the Dept. of Education doesn't hang you out to dry again by changing it.

    As an aside, every version (so far) has the reference to the importance of listening to the President that you also denied existed.
    Last edited by Hew; 09-03-2009 at 12:37 PM.
    I'll take the river down to still water and ride a pack of dogs.

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