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Thread: Eye guarantees: to what age?

  1. #1
    Senior Member kindakinky's Avatar
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    Default Eye guarantees: to what age?

    I was frankly shocked to see one breeder of lab puppies priced at $2,000 only guaranteed eyes to 26 months.

    When I bred curlies, I guaranteed eyes to 7 years. My thinking was a good hunting dog would need clear eyes for at least 7 years and then if an eye problem started, the dog would likely have good vision until at least 9 years of age.

    Is it normal to guarantee lab eyes to just 26 months?

    J. Marti

  2. #2
    Senior Member Juli H's Avatar
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    I bought a pup that had a 5 yr guarantee....
    My personal opinion is that 2.5 yrs is very acceptable. A majority of chessie breeders that offer guarantees have them for 2 yrs....most of your juvenile type cataracts are going to surface within that time frame (2 of mine did, with different types of cataracts)...

    also, not all cataracts are going to cause enough vision loss (or any) to affect a dog's ability to mark...

    MHO.

    Juli
    God answers prayers all the time. Even the ones we don't know we asked. God is Good (always)

    "There are only two ways to live your life.
    One is as though nothing is a miracle.
    The other is as though everything is a miracle."

    - Albert Einstein

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    Two years/26 months is pretty much standard.

    Retinal Dysplasia/Retinal Folds are the most common issue with Labs. These are congenital and are usually diagnosed on either puppy exams or the "first exam" which some would do right before breeding.

    Cataract is the next serious issue. In Labs, the hereditary kind that most people are screening for are called "juvenile cataracts" and most are diagnosed between 6 months and 18 months of age.

    PRA or Progessive Retinal Atrophy is a late onset problem. Not common in most field trial lines although we are seeing more. However, there is a genetic test for this.

    As a breeder, I guarantee my pups until 26 months of age. However, they must not have been bred.

    WRL

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    Senior Member gsc's Avatar
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    I am seeing guarantees that must be CERF'd and shown bad in the first six months or year. That is not impressive as far as a guarantee in my view.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by kindakinky View Post
    I was frankly shocked to see one breeder of lab puppies priced at $2,000 only guaranteed eyes to 26 months.

    When I bred curlies, I guaranteed eyes to 7 years. My thinking was a good hunting dog would need clear eyes for at least 7 years and then if an eye problem started, the dog would likely have good vision until at least 9 years of age.

    Is it normal to guarantee lab eyes to just 26 months?

    J. Marti
    For $2,000 the puppies should all be cerfed by a specialist at exactly 7 weeks of age.

    Also, was the Stud/Dam dog genetically tested for PRA. If not --- $2000 asking price is $$$$$$. There is more to breeding than the pedigree!

    Guarantee should be 7 years for inheritable eye problems. But puppies need to be cerfed on regular basis. Not appropriate for owner to cerf just before 7 years of age!

    Considering how important eye sight is to performance ... 26 months is just plain cheap!
    Pheasanttomeetyou

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheasanttomeetyou View Post
    For $2,000 the puppies should all be cerfed by a specialist at exactly 7 weeks of age.

    Also, was the Stud/Dam dog genetically tested for PRA. If not --- $2000 asking price is $$$$$$. There is more to breeding than the pedigree!

    Guarantee should be 7 years for inheritable eye problems. But puppies need to be cerfed on regular basis. Not appropriate for owner to cerf just before 7 years of age!

    Considering how important eye sight is to performance ... 26 months is just plain cheap!
    Why should the guarantee be for 7 years? What basis do you use for that arbitrary number?

    Are you going to wait to breed a dog until 7 years of age?

    If PRA is a concern, why not just do the DNA test?

    WRL

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRL View Post
    Why should the guarantee be for 7 years? What basis do you use for that arbitrary number?

    Are you going to wait to breed a dog until 7 years of age?

    If PRA is a concern, why not just do the DNA test?

    WRL
    Actually 7 years is referenced by many eye specialists. After 7 years, eye problems can be caused by aging. Before 7 years, eye problems are probably genetic.

    Bitches should not be bred for the first time at 7 years of age. But if you have a healthy bitch that throws nice pups ... no reason not to breed as old as 7 years.

    Finally, if you have pups on the ground, you should continue to CERF your bitches to 7 years of age to be sure that no genetic eye disease shows up that may have been passed down to the pups. You are ethically responsible for passing on all adverse info regarding the pedigree.

    PRA is covered in the DNA test and will answer some vital questions for the prospective puppy buyer. Eye folds, juvenile PRA and cataracts are not discoverable through the Optigen test. Also, it is possible for a new form of PRA to appear. That would only be discovered through CERF.

    Regards ...
    Pheasanttomeetyou

    Refine Your Awareness

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    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Personally, I've always believed a car should be good for 250,000 miles and I should get a refund if it lasts for less. Unfortunately, I've never found a manufacturer that would go along that was likely to be inthe business ten years later anyway.

    I'm assuming that if you think the useful life of a hunting dog should be nine year that you would be happy to only receive a prorated payment if the eyes go at the age of six. Maybe you can negotiate and extended warranty option. You pay an extra $1000 and receive a prorated refund if the dog breaks down before the age of nine. All you have to do is prove that you ever exposed the dog to hazardous conditions and always provided regular maintenance with premium foods and complete Vet care (documented with complete copies of charts).

    There is a lot more to good breeding than good performance pedigrees. You also need good health pedigrees. However, the best breeding cannot prevent all problems, and poor care will trump great breeding every time.

    I offer 28 month guarantees on hips, elbows, eyes, CNM, and EIC. I know that no matter what I do, which includes currently having no females with hips scoring less than PennHIP 80th percentile, some of the pups I breed may develop dysplasia resulting in a claim. That is a cost of breeding that I need to consider in setting my prices. I also know that some of my dogs may develop genetic conditions that are not covered by my guarantee (e.g. epilepsy, sterility). In those cases I do not assume that I have any financial responsibility although I will definitely be concerned and might alter my future breeding plans based on that issue. However, I do not have access to tests or information that permit me to feel comfortable providing a guarantee on those issues any more than I would guarantee that a dog will be suitable for field trials.

    Happily, dogs are not manufactured goods. They are "acts of God" and bring all the good (mostly) and bad (sometimes) that one might expect. It seems to me that a buyer needs to either accept that, be willing to pay extra for insurance (either to the breeder or a insurance company), or buy a truck instead.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Juli H's Avatar
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    Thank you Jeff....

    a little common sense.

    Juli
    God answers prayers all the time. Even the ones we don't know we asked. God is Good (always)

    "There are only two ways to live your life.
    One is as though nothing is a miracle.
    The other is as though everything is a miracle."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheasanttomeetyou View Post
    Actually 7 years is referenced by many eye specialists. After 7 years, eye problems can be caused by aging. Before 7 years, eye problems are probably genetic.

    Bitches should not be bred for the first time at 7 years of age. But if you have a healthy bitch that throws nice pups ... no reason not to breed as old as 7 years.

    Finally, if you have pups on the ground, you should continue to CERF your bitches to 7 years of age to be sure that no genetic eye disease shows up that may have been passed down to the pups. You are ethically responsible for passing on all adverse info regarding the pedigree.

    PRA is covered in the DNA test and will answer some vital questions for the prospective puppy buyer. Eye folds, juvenile PRA and cataracts are not discoverable through the Optigen test. Also, it is possible for a new form of PRA to appear. That would only be discovered through CERF.

    Regards ...
    I'm not following your logic.

    Nobody is saying dogs should not be CERFed until or beyond 7 years of age.

    You stated above that dogs should be GUARANTEED against eye defects until 7 years of age.

    However, I don't know a SINGLE SOLITARY person who has a valid eye, hip or whatever guarantee if the dog has been bred. But now in your second post you are saying that there is no reason to not breed before 7 years of age.

    You don't get a "guarantee" for a dog AND get to breed the defective one....that's ridiculous....

    WRL

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