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Thread: leave ACORNS FOR THE DEER

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry V View Post
    In what ways specifically did they influence this election compared to other organizations?
    http://www.lvrj.com/news/30613864.html

    State authorities on Tuesday raided an organization that registers low-income people to vote, alleging that its canvassers falsified forms with bogus names, fake addresses or famous personalities.

    ..."Some of these (forms) were facially fraudulent; we basically had the starting lineup for the Dallas Cowboys," Secretary of State Ross Miller said. "Tony Romo is not registered to vote in Nevada. Anyone trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot."

    ..."We don't know how many (falsified forms) are here; there may be two, or there may be thousands," said Bob Walsh, spokesman for the secretary of state's office.

    ...Fraudulent forms start filtering in when workers struggle to meet their quota and either fill in bogus names or accept documents with names that are clearly falsified, Miller said.

    ...ACORN's voter registration drive has consisted of recruiting people from off the street, many of them down-and-outers desperate for work, with the promise of $8 an hour for often grueling work. The canvassers were required to be on their feet, flagging down potential registrants, often in the 100-plus-degree heat of the Las Vegas summer.

    Although they were not paid a set fee per registration form collected, which is illegal, they had to meet certain quotas of registrations each day, which is legal.

    Clark County Registrar of Voters Larry Lomax, who has been speaking out about the fraudulent submissions and passing them along to the secretary of state's office for months, said under those circumstances, there was an obvious temptation for workers to duck into an air-conditioned library, for example, and start copying out of the phone book or off a sports roster.

    ...One canvasser turned in 17 applications; only four addresses existed, the investigators alleged.
    A little (sort of) humor from the same article


    "Today's raid by the secretary of state's office is a stunt that serves no useful purpose other than to discredit our work registering Nevadans and distracting us from the important work ahead of getting every eligible voter to the polls," Lewis said.

    ..."It raises significant concerns that they hired prison inmates, some of whom have been convicted of identity theft," Miller said.

    ...ACORN's field director in Nevada and the head of its voter registration effort, known as Project Vote, said the agency is cooperating fully with the investigation.

    "We're proud of what we did here," Chris Edwards said.

    ...According to an affidavit filed by the secretary of state, the canvasser was interviewed and told investigators that meeting the daily quota was difficult because it was hot outside
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    Last edited by ducknwork; 04-21-2011 at 05:31 PM.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Steve Amrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    First, the underage aspect was never mentioned in the second video because the people basically said that they didn't want to know anything about it and that everything would need to be documented with a complete paper trail.

    Second, one of the things that I have always found interesting is the intersection of crime with taxation. Remember that Al Capone was imprisoned for failure to pay taxes on his ill-gotten gains, not for the crimes that he committed to make money.

    In this case the actor begins by requesting tax advice. The advice he is given is actually pretty good. They were told to set up a business as a sole proprietorship and to deposit all receipts into a bank account and declare the income. They were advised to keep track of all expenditures and to deduct them from revenues to calculate the taxable profit and then to file tax returns making sure that there was a good paper trail for everything done. The woman was told that she could expect to be reported and to have the police called unless her activities were very discrete and did not bother neighbors. When asked about employees, the counselors said that those revenues also needed to be reported and that paperwork needed to be in order. The issue of the employees being illegal aliens and being underage was not brought up since the counselor made it clear that all paperwork needed to be in order.

    All of that advice was good and consistent with the law. What they didn't do was to throw the couple out because they said they were involved in prostitution. I have no problem with that. Attorneys don't throw criminals out who come seeking representation and will answer questions that they are asked concerning what is or is not illegal.

    The problem in the Baltimore office was that the couple was being advised to lie. That did not happen in the Washington office. Figuring out how to classify a business activity using the IRS categories is a challenge even if your occupation is legal. I see nothing wrong with a prostitute calling herself an "entertainer" in filing an income tax return. I'm just happy if the taxes are paid. The IRS used to have a category specifically for reporting illegal income. There were some court challenges on whether or not that violated 5th amendment protections and I do not think that category still exists. Prostitutes, drug dealers, contract killers, etc., are all required to pay income taxes. Even though the original crime may be a matter of state law, failure to pay taxes is a federal crime. How can it therefore be wrong to advise such people on how to comply with the law.

    The only area where I heard the counselors possibly cross the line related to purchasing a house for the prostitute. They suggested that the man could buy the house and rent it to his girlfriend. As landlord he could deny knowledge of what was being done there. They also said that if he wanted to avoid arrest and protect his own reputation, he should not visit the property ever except to collect the rent. If he wanted to continue seeing his girlfriend they said it should be at his own house or in a different location. The counselors did not bite when the man asked if they could fabricate prior year returns to satisfy banks. Instead, the counselors said that all paperwork had to be in order. By the way, there would have been no problem if the couple filed income tax returns and paid their taxes for prior years. There would only be fraud if they prepared returns that were never filed and then gave those to a bank to secure a loan.

    Jeff I am really surprised at your lack of how wrong this is. I asked a simple question. I asked if you thought if the things brought up on the first clip were OK. If I were one of those on tape I may play along long and get enough info to turn over to the police so they can be arrested.
    "Communism only works in Heaven, where they don't need it, and in Hell, where they already have it" Ronald Reagan

  3. #53
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Amrein View Post
    Jeff I am really surprised at your lack of how wrong this is. I asked a simple question. I asked if you thought if the things brought up on the first clip were OK. If I were one of those on tape I may play along long and get enough info to turn over to the police so they can be arrested.
    Let me answer directly. I believe everyone should pay income taxes even if their income is from illegal sources. This is consistent with the law. I believe that tax counselors should be willing to counsel individuals wishing to pay taxes on how to pay taxes legally regardless of the source of income. The IRS website notes:

    "Title 26 of the United States Code. The IRC, Section 61(a) defines gross income as ". . . all income from whatever source derived." This has been held by the courts to include income earned from illegal activities such as drug trafficking, embezzlement, extortion, healthcare fraud, bankruptcy fraud and numerous other crimes."

    I would see no reason why an individual self employed as a prostitute would not file a Schedule C classifying the services rendered as, for example, 812890, Other Personal Services. This is a broad category for things not otherwise defined. There is no category for prostitution and, therefore, there is no fraud involved in classifying the service in the most appropriate alternative category.

    By the way, I lived much of my life in Italy where prostitution is legal, regulated, and taxed. I saw nothing wrong with that then and see nothing wrong with it now. Sexual exploitation of children, whether you are the person "employing" child prostitutes or the person paying for their services, is evil. That doesn't mean that the revenues are not taxable.

    EDIT: The actors described illegal behavior that included prostitution, sexual exploitation of minors, and employment of illegal aliens. All of these behaviors are illegal. However, what people say is not a crime and there would have been no basis whatsoever for the ACORN workers to call the police. The fact that the actors told the ACORN workers about crimes that they may or may not have committed does not make the ACORN workers party to any crimes. To the extent that ACORN workers provided advice on how to pay taxes legally, they acted correctly. To the extent that they advised fraudulent activity, they acted inappropriately, but not illegally since no documents were filed and no crime was committed. However, in that case, they should have been terminated. I saw what may have been advice to commit fraud in the Baltimore tape. I did not see such advice in the New York tape. The Washington tape appeared to indicate that the staff went into a gray area with respect to advice provided on concealing the activities for which the house would be used.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 09-14-2009 at 12:19 PM.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Steve Amrein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Let me answer directly. I believe everyone should pay income taxes even if their income is from illegal sources. This is consistent with the law. I believe that tax counselors should be willing to counsel individuals wishing to pay taxes on how to pay taxes legally regardless of the source of income. The IRS website notes:

    "Title 26 of the United States Code. The IRC, Section 61(a) defines gross income as ". . . all income from whatever source derived." This has been held by the courts to include income earned from illegal activities such as drug trafficking, embezzlement, extortion, healthcare fraud, bankruptcy fraud and numerous other crimes."

    I would see no reason why an individual self employed as a prostitute would not file a Schedule C classifying the services rendered as, for example, 812890, Other Personal Services. This is a broad category for things not otherwise defined. There is no category for prostitution and, therefore, there is no fraud involved in classifying the service in the most appropriate alternative category.

    By the way, I lived much of my life in Italy where prostitution is legal, regulated, and taxed. I saw nothing wrong with that then and see nothing wrong with it now. Sexual exploitation of children, whether you are the person "employing" child prostitutes or the person paying for their services, is evil. That doesn't mean that the revenues are not taxable.

    EDIT: The actors described illegal behavior that included prostitution, sexual exploitation of minors, and employment of illegal aliens. All of these behaviors are illegal. However, what people say is not a crime and there would have been no basis whatsoever for the ACORN workers to call the police. The fact that the actors told the ACORN workers about crimes that they may or may not have committed does not make the ACORN workers party to any crimes. To the extent that ACORN workers provided advice on how to pay taxes legally, they acted correctly. To the extent that they advised fraudulent activity, they acted inappropriately, but not illegally since no documents were filed and no crime was committed. However, in that case, they should have been terminated. I saw what may have been advice to commit fraud in the Baltimore tape. I did not see such advice in the New York tape. The Washington tape appeared to indicate that the staff went into a gray area with respect to advice provided on concealing the activities for which the house would be used.

    From Acorns website front page

    ACORN



    ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, is the nation's largest community organization of low- and moderate-income families, working together for social justice and stronger communities.


    So what part of " Social justice and stronger comunities" does illeagle imagration, tax evasion, sexplotation of minors and prostitution serve ? How does this benifit the comunity ?
    "Communism only works in Heaven, where they don't need it, and in Hell, where they already have it" Ronald Reagan

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    This old news is proof of their "influence"? Let me get this straight. Some of their employees submitted illegitimate voter registration cards that were caught by local elected officials which then resulted in some fictitious people who never intended to vote not being able to vote. What a tremendous influence they had indeed.

    Could you point me to something in this article or elsewhere which shows how any of these alleged voter registration fraud incidents actually influenced the election? I can see how it influenced the right wing base given all the concern about ACORN here. All this stuff is well known. ACORN had voter registration campaigns like many other organizations. That is their job. Some people signed forms illegitimately and all submitted forms are required by law to be turned in. Some employees/contractors apparently made up names. Local election authorities caught these errors.

    That story and others like it are almost a year old now. Who has been convicted for voter registration fraud since the election? More importantly, how much voting fraud has been prosecuted?
    President Obama received 69,499,303 votes compared to 59,950,037 for John McCain. Are you saying that some of these votes were illegitimate because of ACORN and that their alleged actions tipped the votes to change the election? If so, it seems like the McCain and the RNC would be on this.
    A speculative case could be made that demonizing ACORN rallies the base more than enough to easily offset whatever ACORN does to get more legally eligible people to vote.
    Last edited by Henry V; 09-14-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  6. #56
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    What makes you think that there were no registrations that made it through the system? It is not difficult to get a fake ID that someone could use to vote under one of the fictitious names. I would be shocked and surprised if there were not people who voted multiple times under multiple names. I personally know of at least one felon that voted. I am sure that he wasn't the only one nationwide. I am not saying that any of this would add up to 10 million votes, but for you to say that there is no chance of any influence is incredibly naive.
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    Last edited by ducknwork; 04-21-2011 at 05:31 PM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    http://www.lvrj.com/news/30613864.html



    A little (sort of) humor from the same article
    There is a huge difference between registering a voter and voting. Under PA law, which is relatively typical as far as I know, the voter registration form is completed and signed by the applicant. The form now requires that the applicant enter a PA drivers license number, the last four digits of their SSN, or enter the word NONE. In signing the form, the signer is executing an oath and may be prosecuted for perjury in the event of fraudulent entries. Several people have been prosecuted based on this, including a couple of people working for ACORN as well as a couple of Republican committee people).

    The person collecting the form as part of a registration drive is legally permitted to extract information from the form, copy the form and make use of it in almost any way desired. However, they are not permitted to change the information and are required to submit it. The election board makes almost no effort whatsoever to verify the information on the form. Instead, the voter registration list sent to the polling station identifies the individual as a first time voter. As such they are required to provide valid identification and proof of address when they vote. That is the protection against fraud.

    In fact, the errors which occur are almost entirely the result of activities that prevent legitimate voters from exercising their rights to vote. In a sample of 10,000 voter registration cards submitted in Allegheny County in 2004, 8,000 were actually entered into the database. A voter assistance organization was able to get 500 more of these entered prior to the registration deadline, but the balance were never processed for various reasons.

    The theory in these cases is that the voter will attempt to vote, be denied, and then complete a provisional ballot. A judge will review these cases and determine whether or not to count the ballot. In fact, in the 2004 election, only 12 provisional ballots were sent to each polling station. This proved to be totally inadequate. Hundreds of people were told that they had no recourse and were sent away. A few managed to get to a court where a judge ruled that the court would stay open until 9:30 to permit provisional ballots to be filed. However, most of those turned away simply went home.

    The reality is that the primary form of voter fraud practiced in America today is the implementation of "security" procedures designed to challenge the ability of valid voters to cast their ballots, knowing that the difficulties of going to court will deter most of the votes from ever being cast. This has been shown by investigation after investigation, and in one case resulted in the RNC entering into a consent decree where it agreed to stop a tactic called caging that it had employed systematically to challenge minority and low income voters over a period of almost 20 years (see http://www.projectvote.org/images/pu...t_Decree_1.pdf).

  8. #58
    Senior Member JDogger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducknwork View Post
    What makes you think that there were no registrations that made it through the system? It is not difficult to get a fake ID that someone could use to vote under one of the fictitious names. I would be shocked and surprised if there were not people who voted multiple times under multiple names. I personally know of at least one felon that voted. I am sure that he wasn't the only one nationwide. I am not saying that any of this would add up to 10 million votes, but for you to say that there is no chance of any influence is incredibly naive.
    I'm willing to accept your premise that there may have been some fraudulent voter registrations, some cases of multiple votes, and some felons who voted. If you think this doesn't take place to some small degree in both parties, then you are the one that is incredibly naive. If such actions take place on both sides, what then is the nature of any influence overall?
    One cannot reason someone out of something they were not reasoned into. - Jonathan Swift

  9. #59
    Senior Member Bob Gutermuth's Avatar
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    ACORN office in NY busted by the same crew.http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-probes-acorn/
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDogger View Post
    I'm willing to accept your premise that there may have been some fraudulent voter registrations, some cases of multiple votes, and some felons who voted. If you think this doesn't take place to some small degree in both parties, then you are the one that is incredibly naive. If such actions take place on both sides, what then is the nature of any influence overall?
    I am sure that it happens in both parties. That would be naive to think it didn't.

    I am not sure about New Mexico, but most of the felons around here probably won't be voting republican or especially against Obama, if you catch my drift.
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    Last edited by ducknwork; 04-21-2011 at 05:32 PM.

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