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Thread: Push/Pull clairification please.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bullet's Avatar
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    Default Push/Pull clairification please.

    I did a search on push/pull for lining drills and they all use different verbage. Can somebody explain this to me? Here is what I understand and correct me if I am wrong:

    Dog is at heal on my left:

    If I want her to turn and look to our left(away from me) it is a heal command...step back..."pull".

    If I want her to turn and look to our right(toward me) it is a here command...step forward..."push".

    I think that I am all confused now that I just typed all that out so if someone could help me with an easy way to remember this I would love it!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gun_Dog2002's Avatar
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    Since I two side heel my dogs I do this.

    Heal = Turn away from me, or to the outside.
    Here = Turn in to me or closer to me.

    Your off leg should also slightly move forward and back depending on here/heal.

    /Paul
    Paul Cantrell
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    I think that I am all confused now that I just typed all that out so if someone could help me with an easy way to remember this I would love it!
    I think you may be a little off. But that's easily fixed.



    This is, in reality, just a Wagon Wheel Lining drill with half the bumpers placed. I use it for push/pull training becaues it gives the trainer large, clear movements to teach the dog to move with him or her.



    If this dog were heeled on your left side, you would turn right, and command "Here". This would be Pull. Pull is a more indirect influence on the dog that Pushing.



    Again, with the dog at your left side, you would turn left, step forward on the dog and command "Heel" to turn the dog with you to the left. Stepping up (forward) is an act of pushing, and is a more direct influence on the dog.

    I believe one of the key reasons why so many trainers use two-sided heeling is so that they can put the dog on either side in many situations, and push instead of pull because it's more apt to produce the needed movement. Paul's explanation of the verbal command/dog position relationship is excellent.

    Evan
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Bullet's Avatar
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    Thanks...That is exactly what we are doing is the half wagon wheel drill. It is like I am dancing with my dog and neither of us knows the steps yet .

  5. #5
    Senior Member Chris S.'s Avatar
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    I donít give much advice because Iím still learning so much with every passing year, but I will share my experience with push and pull.
    My first dog now 5 years old MH, I did the drill just as you and Evan describe. This drill added to the creeping problem. In the yard my dog would remain seated when I stepped up on her and everything was fine. However at an event when I stepped up on her to align her spine one she would step up three. So the result was that I had very little control.
    Just this summer Iíve switched to a new way of always making the dog align its spine to the bird. The dog must adjust to my leg. I do not move my foot to align the spine. I may inch my foot up one centimeter to push its head, but moving the head is a separate task.
    Iím leaving for the day, but others on this board can chime in with their thoughts.
    That is the ideal for me. I donít always put it into practice and fall back to my old habits when Iím not paying attention. Make the dog heel to you to get the spine aligned!

  6. #6
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Think of it as "pushing" the dog away from you as you pivot toward him OR "pulling" the dog toward you as you pivot away from him.

    JS
    ďDonít wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.Ē Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

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  7. #7
    Senior Member GG's Avatar
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    Want to learn what not to do in lining up your dog for a blind; go to a field trial and intensely watch the handlers on line, especially if there are marks or poison bird involved.
    If that does not motivate you to learn or develop a level of communication with your dog on line nothing will. You do not have to be right just consistent.
    have fun training
    GG
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Bullet's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for the responses....I think we are getting the motions down. At least I have them down she is getting there. The problem I am having is that if there is a dummy that is not completely visible she wants to lock on to the one on either side of it that is. I will then have to gradually step closer until she sees it and locks on it. I am in mowed grass with white dummies. I am talking if one is laying horizontal to us with all the white showing and one is laying vertical with only the end showing I have a hard time lining her up to the vertical one.

    I am guessing that this is a confidence/trust thing that will come in time. Right? Is this drill just intended to line the dog on an easily seen objects and not a confidence builder drill?

  9. #9
    Senior Member JS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet View Post
    Thanks guys for the responses....I think we are getting the motions down. At least I have them down she is getting there. The problem I am having is that if there is a dummy that is not completely visible she wants to lock on to the one on either side of it that is. I will then have to gradually step closer until she sees it and locks on it. I am in mowed grass with white dummies. I am talking if one is laying horizontal to us with all the white showing and one is laying vertical with only the end showing I have a hard time lining her up to the vertical one.

    I am guessing that this is a confidence/trust thing that will come in time. Right? Is this drill just intended to line the dog on an easily seen objects and not a confidence builder drill?
    That is exactly what you would expect from a young dog in the early learning stages! And you are doing just what you should do.

    Be patient. The dog will learn to trust you and go where sent. But it doesn't come overnight. When you are able to succeed at what you are trying now, you will further challenge him by adding spokes to the wheel, making the angles between bumpers smaller and the adjustments more precise. Later, you will put orange (invisible) bumpers between the white ones so he will learn to pass by the visible bumpers toward something he cannot see. This is all done over time in small, baby steps.

    Good luck. It's fun when you see the light come on!!

    JS
    Last edited by JS; 09-25-2009 at 12:11 PM.
    ďDonít wave your phony patriotism in MY face! If you really love America, open your wallet and hire an American kid to build what you buy. Think of all our problems that might solve.Ē Doug Fraser (paraphrased) 1980

    Real Americans buy American.



    Snowshoe's All American Guy SH, UDX, WCX ... CODY ... at the bridge
    CH. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy MH, UD, WCX, SDHF, OS ... PRESLEY
    ... at the bridge
    Millpond's Baby Boomer MH*** ... BABE
    Snowshoe's Crazy For Lovin You SH ... NELSON

  10. #10
    Senior Member kindakinky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gun_Dog2002 View Post
    Since I two side heel my dogs I do this.

    Heal = Turn away from me, or to the outside.
    Here = Turn in to me or closer to me.

    Your off leg should also slightly move forward and back depending on here/heal.

    /Paul
    /Paul: Can you explain why you use two words that are very close to each other as far as tone, phonetics, etc.? Do you use one word when initially training a pup to come to handler? And, if so, when do you introduce the second word and second here/heal position?

    In horse driving, gee and haw have traditionally been used to indicate right and left. The words generally produce different inflections in the voice (gee tends to produce a higher pitch and haw a lower pitch.) In some ways, I think the here vs. heal produces the same difference in inflection.

    At what age do you think a dog should be able to understand the left side vs. right side command? Or do you teach both terms at the same time?

    Thank you.

    J. Marti

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