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White labs

6K views 24 replies 18 participants last post by  Ironman 
#1 ·
I believe a dog that works is valuable no matter the color.

Just saw a so-called white lab has qualified for the MN. Is white as much of a no-no as silver?

My first puppy in 10 years is a stud fee puppy. And I chose the pup with a huge white spot (never saw that in my breeding before) who is automatically disqualified from the show ring. I've wanted a pup with a huge white spot forever. It goes back to the origins of my breed (Curly Coated Retrievers) in which some dogs were totally white. And many were black and white or liver and white. (And yellow.)

I know some people think certain dog breeds should be of a certain color and nothing else. But I'm old enough to know when yellow and chocolate labradors were considered crap as field dogs.

And I've seen the debate on silver labs here. So, what about white labs?

I just want to learn about whether white labs have some support. Goldens used to be basically golden or yellow but a more white, creamy color has been supported in the last 15-20 years or so, at least in the conformation ring.

I don't breed labs or goldens. I just like to hear dog people's opinions of different colors, especially since the field lab has gone from basic black to acceptance of yellows and chocolates.

Are there still some people old enough on here who can't believe (or will admit they can't believe) chocolate and yellow labs can be great field trial labs? And do the creamy goldens give any folks on here pause? (Or Paws?)

J. Marti
 
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#2 · (Edited)
the 08 National Amateur Field champion was a yellow lab....the current high point Derby dog and on pace to break the all time derby record is a chocolate lab, so that puts your last statement pretty much to rest...and I am old enough to remember that archaic way of thinking because it was perpetuated by a bunch of old time trainers/owners who were unwilling to challenge the status quo and expand their horizons and their minds
 
#3 ·
I don't know how white people consider white or snow or cream or whatever, it's another way of labeling and marketing just like fox red and for a while was the "it" shade. I have had very light pups from black dams and "regular" yellow dams, some stay very light, some darken as they get older. It is within the color standard, yellow ranges from cream to fox red. These particular pups are FC AFC "plain" yellow sire x black MH dam. I wouldn't call them white but they are pretty light.
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#4 ·
Behind many, but not all of the yellow Labs that are termed white is CH Ridge View Frosty the Snoman JH who was BOB at Westminster and also a Best in Specialty winner. He was also ranked Number Three Labrador All-Breed in 1999 and was bred a lot. This color is acceptable by the LRC as a form of yellow. I have had light Labs from field lines but they usually have darker shading on the ears. http://www.ridgeviewlabradors.com/dogprofile.php?DogSN=SN36298807
 
#5 ·
As long as breeders aren't marketing them under terms like "rare white snowballs" That really gets me. Yellow Labs come in shades from white to fox red.
Let's face it, humans are very visual creatures and we have a tendency to describe things as we see it. As an artist, I get that more than most.
So, white is an acceptable shade of yellow and I have 2 in my current litter!
 
#6 ·
White is just an incorrectly labeled but acceptable shade of yellow. And indeed calling the shade white is only offensive to dog snobs like us
; no one seems to get anywhere near as exercized when it's called cream. Calling a light yellow Lab white is no different than calling a chocolate one brown or liver or calling a black Lab ebony. The controversy over silver Labs is nothing more than an argument/heated discussion over whether Labs have the dilution gene that turns black to charcoal and brown to silver. Given the ancestry of Labs it's quite possible they did at one point have the dilution gene but the colors expressed by the gene are something breeders have selected against for decades since the LRC states the only acceptable colors are yellow, choc. and black. Same thing with white markings....I'm not sure how the LRC words it but I don't believe small white markings on the chest or toes are an actual disqualification unless the white is sufficiently large; they just make it clear solid colored dogs are preferred.

It's also important to remember that something like a white marking that may prevent a dog from winning in the show ring is, for Labs, not a big deal since most field bred Labs would never be competitive under any circumstances in today's breed ring, regardless of color or markings.

Chesapeakes also often have white markings on the chest and/or toes and the ACC states this is acceptable but not preferred. I know a lot of old timey hunters who think a white marking is a good thing for a puppy to have since they believe those make the best hunting dogs. And apparently AKC show judges don't mind white on CBRs since many of the breed's top winning show dogs do have white on their chests.
 
#7 ·
As far as "Goldens" go (colorwise).
IF they have go, love the water and are trainable ,I don't care what color they are as long as they don't have white on any areas. MY pet-peeve.:mad:
I had 1 guy tell me that the "best" Golden he ever had had a black spot on his tongue. Well whoop-dee-do.:rolleyes:
Sue
Currently own a "White" lab. (or so she looks) out of FC/AFC "Champ".
She is 7 months and I don't see her getting ANY darker.
 
#10 ·
I've wanted a pup with a huge white spot forever. It goes back to the origins of my breed (Curly Coated Retrievers) in which some dogs were totally white. And many were black and white or liver and white. (And yellow.)


This is really interesting you say the origins of your breed Curly Coated Retrievers which some were totally white, black and white or liver and white.
Do you have pictures? I'd love to see pics of them.
 
#15 ·
This is really interesting you say the origins of your breed Curly Coated Retrievers which some were totally white, black and white or liver and white.
Do you have pictures? I'd love to see pics of them.
Audrey Nicholls (Darelyn) mentions white curlies in her book and one predominantly white is preserved at a British museum. (I would have to look up what museum but you probably have a copy of Audrey's book.)

Here's the pic:


This guy looks totally curly: from the smooth face, etc. You can see the bonnet he has on his skull which is so correct for curlies.

There was also a pic on Ebay about 8 years ago of a white curly in the Northwest of the U.S. photographed in about 1900. Unfortunately, I could not bid high enough to buy it. I also could not bid high enough to purchase the pair of mittens from an early dog sled musher made out of curly skin and hair.

Some Great Pyrenees and Kuvasz historians indicate part of the development of their breed included crosses with English curly coated retrievers in Canada. Interestingly weird, huh?

"Cream" colored curlies are mentioned in some British writings of the late 1800's. At one time, a small white patch on the breast, rather than just a "few white hairs" was allowable in curlies.

I recognize some curly breeders believe any curly born with more than a few white hairs today is somehow the product of a mismating. But that would fly in the face of what Audrey Nicholls has written (and I don't believe anyone would deny Mrs. Nicholls was one, if not the preeminent, of the foremost experts on the breed in our lifetime.)

Regards from someone who owns a curly with quite a bit more than a few white hairs (and he has polka dots of black in his white patch--totally cool, at least to me....:)

J. Marti
 
#11 ·
Back a few years (OK maybe more than a few) it was hard to get a cream or white lab...they would all be yellow with an occasional very light colored one. Now it's hard to
get that beautiful yellow..Where do we want to go with these color variations? I want to get a pair that throw a nice yella dog. Are we messing with the genetics so we'll create out of the norm colors and the "old colors" will go away?
 
#12 ·
I once had a guy bring his dog in for training and when he brought the white dog out of the truck I told him he has a nice looking yellow lab. He immediately corrected me by saying it is a white lab.
So I told him that I charge $100.00 more for white labs. He immediately told me that his lab was yellow:)
 
#20 ·
So what actually causes a "Yellow" Lab.....

.....to have a "White" coat.....


......or to have a "Red" Coat?
Modifier genes. Lots of em.
Same thing that makes an Irish Setter red, a golden retriever gold, and a buff cocker spaniel, well, buff. Throw them together with the yellow labs and they are ALL recessive at the E locus and that resultant yellow color lightened or darkened by an unknown number of modifier genes that toggle on or off to add or subtract color.
 
#17 ·
The only part about advertising that drives me nuts, about any color or breed, is when they say "rare!" , "hard to achieve color!", "only found here!" in their ads. 95% of them are of colors NOT in the breed standard or of an obvious fault. Case in point, I seen an ad for "rare blue eyed chocolate puppies" in the same litter were "rare pink nosed yellow babies with blue eyes". Obviously the breeder didn't know enough about pups to realize that puppies have blueish eyes that turn to shades of brown or yellow (another RARE occurrence!) as the pups get older. I am also seeing a lot of normal mid-range yellows sold as fox reds because their ears are darker.
Another breed that has really gone downhill in the Kansas City area is boxers. Everyone with a backyard seems to be breeding them and selling rare white or rare black ones. White pups are pretty much the norm in over 3/4 of all the litters advertised. Black and black and white are showing up in about 1 out of 10 ads as well.
I have no problem with people using white, creme, light, dark, fox red, etc.. as discriptures so that people know what shade of pups are available, just don't make that the ONLY selling point. Oh, and don't try and tell me that you are going to charge me extra for it! :rolleyes:
 
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