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Thread: More school?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Raymond Little's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.
    Call a spade a spade Buzz, the teachers unions have ruined the public school system in America. We do not have a funding problem, we have
    a results problem in this country. America spends more per child than any
    industrialized country in the world with pizz poor results. The lefts answer to everything has and will always be to throw more money at it to be skimmed off by the teachers unions and politicians. We will never have an outstanding education system until the NEA is kicked out of the school house. It would not hurt if all da baby momma and babby daddy would raise thier own chilren and be responsible parrents but I never see that happening.

    Reallist Regards
    "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is watching"....J.C. Watts

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjiorle View Post
    Jeff, The statistics of other countries being academically superior to the US can be very misleading. Consider that those countries mostly apply a system of tracting (sp?). where only the academically gifted kids attend academic schools, and the other students are enrolled in vocational/trade schools. I imagine if we only tested the best and brightest we have, we would look pretty good too.
    Mike
    I didn't quote educational rankings. However, the ones traditionally used track 15 year olds, which predates the age at which kids are generally permitted to leave school in most countries and would be unaffected by separation of students into academic and vocational tracks (they are all tested). By other measures, including the percentage of students graduating from high school and the percentage graduating from collage, the US is also falling behind even though secondary schools in other countries typically go one year longer than those in the US.

    Obviously cost is a factor in deciding what weight is given to education as you note in your subsequent post. However, I would argue that one can provide a stronger education without incurring the costs that are found in NJ (the highest cost/student in the country) by shifting resources from administrative functions to pedagogical ones. NJ has a ridiculously expensive system in terms of admin costs, spending almost twice as much as my school district, located just across the border, which has an academic record better than most NJ schools.

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    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Little View Post
    Call a spade a spade Buzz, the teachers unions have ruined the public school system in America. We do not have a funding problem, we have
    a results problem in this country. America spends more per child than any
    industrialized country in the world with pizz poor results. The lefts answer to everything has and will always be to throw more money at it to be skimmed off by the teachers unions and politicians. We will never have an outstanding education system until the NEA is kicked out of the school house. It would not hurt if all da baby momma and babby daddy would raise thier own chilren and be responsible parrents but I never see that happening.

    Reallist Regards
    I attended public school all my life. When young, I attended union-shop schools until 2nd grade. When we moved to Alabama, I tested at a 6th grade level, but they were only willing to place me in the 5th grade, instead of third. I was bored out of my mind, and got into lots of trouble for explaining the lessons to the teacher much of the time.

    Quality of education is a function of dedicated, educated teachers, whether they are union or not. I have paid just as high school taxes in non-union districts in the south as I have union districts in the north. Poor leadership and corrupt administrators are likely more to blame that teachers trying to earn living wages.
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    I attended public school all my life. When young, I attended union-shop schools until 2nd grade. When we moved to Alabama, I tested at a 6th grade level, but they were only willing to place me in the 5th grade, instead of third. I was bored out of my mind, and got into lots of trouble for explaining the lessons to the teacher much of the time.

    Quality of education is a function of dedicated, educated teachers, whether they are union or not. I have paid just as high school taxes in non-union districts in the south as I have union districts in the north. Poor leadership and corrupt administrators are likely more to blame that teachers trying to earn living wages.
    Part Time employment, generally staffed by the lower echelon of those who partake of higher education - I would say the pay is more than adequate for the product.

    Quote Originally Posted by dnf777 View Post
    I'd like to see more quality school time spent on science and math, and also, more PE activities. We're turning out fat, stupid kids as it is. Not all the schools' fault though, many parents can't help their kids with 3rd grade math, even if they cared to. And when there's school boards that want to teach the earth is 6000 years old in science class......God help us! (pun intended)
    In my day the educators ran the schools with full support of the community. That day "No Longer Exists" courtesy of some really bad decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I don't know what the patterns are around the world. In Europe and the more advanced countries of Asia, typical school days last about eight hours with a lunch period but little or no free periods during the day. While my academic program in high school was fairly typical, I graduated from high school at the end of 12th grade with 32 credits, including 16 credits for lab sciences, or almost twice the number required in most US schools. America balances that some by having college last four years for a Bachelor's Degree vs. three in other countries. However, it is hard for the US to compete academically when its schools offer significantly less time for content at the secondary levels. As a parent, I felt that having summers "off" was good as long as my kids were engaged in structured activities such as jobs, camps, or summer schools. However, I was never prepared to simply allow my kids to have a two month vacation. From the age of 14 on, I insisted that they have jobs.
    We will not get there with longer days taught by ill qualified pedagogues. As I was, our children were & our grandchildren are - there is some leisure time in the summer but there are also chores & activities to round the children's education.

    I do not believe it bad to allow children enough time to be bored, it's tells you something about them with their use of that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjiorle View Post
    Jeff, The statistics of other countries being academically superior to the US can be very misleading. Consider that those countries mostly apply a system of tracting (sp?). where only the academically gifted kids attend academic schools, and the other students are enrolled in vocational/trade schools. I imagine if we only tested the best and brightest we have, we would look pretty good too.
    Mike
    I worked with engineers from around the world at TBC. I did not see any ethnicity rise above the rest, though I could name some countries where their background set them back considerably. The desire to have a statistically driven analysis of a student's capability is, anyway to me, somewhat EWO driven.

    I have talked to a couple of schools about sponsoring scholarships to encourage those students, like myself, who were not able to be plugged into their round or square hole. Their answer, grades in HS are a good indicator of how well a student will do. The conversation has ended there. I am a big believer in testing, there used to be s system of tests that came out of Iowa that were quite good at showing what a student had learned. Apparently, they are no longer in vogue. What is in vogue is sucking up to the teacher to be well thought of. One observation I will make "If the educators anoint someone as a can't miss success", they will more than likely never get above the middle of the pack.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjiorle View Post
    Maybe we should let educators handle the business of education. There's already too much influence from outside sources. Politicians (Bush "No Child Left Behind") Now another plan? Community, and parents can sometimes have too much influence in educational decisions. Speaking as a teacher(please don't bash us), our hands are tied because of someone outside of education having a great "plan" or way that we should do things. As far as home schooling goes, the children who do well with it would also do well in school, because they have parents who care. I've seen the good and bad of home school. Any way you look at it, we have a flawed system in this country. I am a teacher, and a taxpayer. I also look at my grandparents(in NJ); getting killed on their taxes. I don't have the answer, and I don't know if there is one.
    Mike
    I won't disagree with your too much outside influence. But, the education system screwed it up & now everyone has a solution they hope will stick, but is generally the same tired stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.
    Where you live spends very little per pupil yet along with several other of these low spending states seems to finish with some fairly bright children. What causes that?

    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    I didn't quote educational rankings. However, the ones traditionally used track 15 year olds, which predates the age at which kids are generally permitted to leave school in most countries and would be unaffected by separation of students into academic and vocational tracks (they are all tested). By other measures, including the percentage of students graduating from high school and the percentage graduating from collage, the US is also falling behind even though secondary schools in other countries typically go one year longer than those in the US.

    Obviously cost is a factor in deciding what weight is given to education as you note in your subsequent post. However, I would argue that one can provide a stronger education without incurring the costs that are found in NJ (the highest cost/student in the country) by shifting resources from administrative functions to pedagogical ones. NJ has a ridiculously expensive system in terms of admin costs, spending almost twice as much as my school district, located just across the border, which has an academic record better than most NJ schools.
    Portland, OR for years had the multiple track & Benson Tech sent as many students to college as the so-called college oriented programs, so it is no longer used.

    Schools should be smaller, classes should be limited to one sex, discipline should be practiced & better use should be made of those hours the students are in the school building.

    There should be an allowance for those teachers who practice the more difficult disciplines & pay should be partially predicated on where that teacher falls on the intelligence scale.
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  5. #15
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    Marvin,

    Your post has so many absurd notions, I have elected to not bother quoting and pointing them out.

    More intelligence more pay? How does someone "more intelligent" become a "better teacher"? The two do NOT go hand in hand.

    All one sex classes? Ridiculous.....

    I was homeschooled for three years. I homeschooled my son for three years. Other than that, I was publicly schooled as was my son.

    I believe a few changes would work wonders on our education program:

    1) Bigger not smaller classes. I would think 45-50 kids per class.

    2) Requiring every parent to spend 6 hours in class for EACH of their children (if you have 6 kids, your choice but you still have to spend 36 (6 x 6) hours per month in class). That would be one hour per class that your child has. It will do two things, help out the teacher as a teacher's aide, AND your child is less likely to be a jerk with mom or dad there so hopefully more learning would happen.

    3)Year round school. Most people in the colder climates yank their kids out of school for x amount (fill in the amount) to do "family vacations" whether it is to take a day skiiing or a week to Hawaii. In the southern climates, lots of families want to head north to escape some heat for family vacations. A simple 15 week period, (12 weeks in school, 3 weeks out) with a shift (running 4 sets of offset groups of kids through each school) will allow for more kids to be taught in each school, plus the kids will learn in quarters (no more of weeks off in the middle of quarters or semesters, I had a hard time remembering my locker combination let alone what we were studying before Christmas break). Parents would learn to schedule vacations based on when THEIR kids were out of school. No reason other than illness for kids to miss more than a day here or there.

    4) Teachers are compensated WELL for test results for their classes. Performance based earnings. Base salary plus bonuses for number kids passing the state learning tests or achivement tests.

    Alot of people will say that daycare costs are more with year round school. That is garbage. The kids will actually spend more time in school so would reduce daycare costs. Also, people will say what about sports? What about them? If its Christmas or Thanksgiving vacation time, and thekids are not in school kids are still participating in sports. Same here. Even if you have a three week off period, if your kid is in sports or whatever it will still go on....just like little league during summer vacation.

    WRL

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    Senior Member dnf777's Avatar
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    There are communities where you could have 40-50 kids in a class. There are places where you would need riot police, not crossing guards to maintain order!
    God Bless PFC Jamie Harkness. The US Army's newest PFC, but still our neighbor's little girl!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    From what I've read, if you compare our best students to the best students from around the world, we come out very well. Where we are failing is in providing good education for those on the lower end of he socioeconomic spectrum. I would think that the blame can be shared between the parents who serve as poor role models and the system we have for funding education in our country.
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    Last edited by ducknwork; 04-21-2011 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRL View Post
    Marvin,

    Your post has so many absurd notions, I have elected to not bother quoting and pointing them out.
    You apparently have not been folowing what happens in the real world as I have for half a century. Those are not absurd notions as they have been tried & found to work. Just like Charter Schools & Choice but have all been trashcanned by the allies of the status quo.

    More intelligence more pay? How does someone "more intelligent" become a "better teacher"? The two do NOT go hand in hand.
    That's why the military academies still place a premium on intellegence. Like race horse pedigrees it's not the whole show but is a substantial part of it.


    I am sure you do many LTTE's for the Op-Ed page of the Oregonian, as I am sure you have sent a letter to the Evergreen Education Association saying you would like to see 60% of their members be unemployed.

    Actually, some of those who send children to the government schools are hard pressed to find time in a day to do all they need to do. If the entire system started earning the money it has taken in, there would be no need for Mom &/or Dad to be in attendance. Besides, they only want you there to shill for the levy.

    The schools are not doing a particularly stellar job, so you say more time in school. What will that accomp[lish?

    As for performance base, that's why I say some pay based on IQ, there is no method of influencing that. You are either smart or you are not!

    Your rant is quite typical of someone who is not playing with a full deck &/or a level of knowledge about the subject (You may take that statement as it fits). Government Schools have a diverse population, not all children learn at the same rate or from the same page, the schools need to be capable of dealing with that. So far they have only shown themselves partially capable.
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  9. #19
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    Your post is laughable.

    Firstly, I KNOW you. You wouldn't have a clue who I am.

    As far as who is playing with a full deck....LOL

    I know I am but not so sure you are.

    As far as the "half century" comment.....being 70 years old give or take doesn't make you smarter, just makes you OLDER.

    The BEST teachers are not necessarily the ones with the highest IQs.....they are the ones that can communicate the best to make the material understandable.

    If a parent is "hard pressed" to find time to spend with their child in school, then perhaps they shouldn't have them? or have as many of them?

    I never said more time in school. The year round school amounts to pretty much the same time they spend now. Its just distributed differently.

    As far as my "rant" being someone not playing with a full deck, how long has it been since YOU had a child in school? Thirty years give or take not including your grandchildren.

    You are out of touch with the real world on many fronts. This is just one of them.

    WRL

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    Quote Originally Posted by WRL View Post
    Firstly, I KNOW you. You wouldn't have a clue who I am.
    NO - you met me once - it ends there. But the fact that you think you are incognito says a whole lot. I also know who you are, if that makes any difference. I don't believe so.

    As for your educational theories - it's all IYO. Nothing else - I would drop a few names but they would probably be too intellectual for you to even have read them.
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