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Thread: Dick Cheney back in the news

  1. #21
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce MacPherson View Post
    In what situation would we have no choice? Which war was engaged in for the sole purpose of proving we have cojones? Never mind we all know which one you believe we engaged in for that purpose.
    I believe we had no choice but to get involved in WWII. To have failed to do so would have destroyed our country. We had no particular reason to become involved in Vietnam and in Iraq the second time. Korea and Afghanistan are harder questions. In both there was a clear reason for becoming involved in a limited engagement. With both we then faced the issue of how far to take it. In Korea that meant moving from a war to defend South Korea to a war against China and ended in stalemate. In Afghanistan we are now deciding how far we are prepared to go and I suspect that the "right" answer might require a much bigger war than the American population is prepared to support.

    Others wars along the way were much more limited in their objectives and, right or wrong, never escalated to efforts to impose a fundamentally different government on another country. This includes Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosuvo, and the first Gulf War among others.

    And yes, I do believe that the primary reason for invading Iraq was to set an example to prove that it was not worth it for countries or groups to engage the US in asymetric warfare because we would respond overwhelmingly and destroy our enemy. Instead, we showed just how vulnerable we were to such attacks and just how limited we were in being able to impose our will on another country.

  2. #22
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    Here is how it is relevant:

    Your facts are incorrect in your sanctomonious effort to discredit a Republican for being the one to get the USA involved in Viet Nam.
    That is a falsehood.
    Harry S. Truman, a DEMOCRAT got us involved in the 10,000 day war.
    You know that is the truth.
    To say anything else is disingenuous on your part.

    You are not the sole posseser of the truth.
    Just because you type multi paragraphs doesn't mean you are correct.

    Anyone can look it up and see the facts.

    In fact, why don't you show us some evidence that Eisenhower sent the first US troops to Viet Nam?
    And I will show my evidence it was Truman!!

    Your move.
    You should try reading my post. I believe I am very specific with respect to both Truman and Eisenhower. And, as I noted, I believe (and most historians seem to agree) that the American involvement in the Vietnam War began with the US rejection of the Geneva Accord and the US commitment of American soldiers to the defense of the South Vietnamese government in 1955.

  3. #23
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Perry View Post
    . If one could think about direct combat engagement then it would be November 1, 1955 -- The U.S. redesignates MAAG, Indochina, as MAAG, Vietnam to specify its new direct combat advisory role with the South Vietnamese Army. The U.S. essentially took over the advisory role from the French, who were leaving Vietnam after their defeat at Diem Bien Phu in 1954. The Department of Defense views this date as the earliest qualifying date for inclusion on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. In fact this allows US military personnel to use live weapon in Vietnam aka 'to fight'!


    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_t..._start_and_end
    If one could think of when the USA got involved in Viet Nam by the direction of President Harry Truman (Democrat).....it would be 1950.

    FACT!!

    SPIN baby, SPIN!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  4. #24
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    You should try reading my post. I believe I am very specific with respect to both Truman and Eisenhower. And, as I noted, I believe (and most historians seem to agree) that the American involvement in the Vietnam War began with the US rejection of the Geneva Accord and the US commitment of American soldiers to the defense of the South Vietnamese government in 1955.
    This is not about what you beleive, the facts are....US troops were first sent to Viet Nam in 1950 by direction of Harry Truman (Democrat).

    In an earlier post you stated that it was Eisenhower that got us involved, and you noted he was a Republican.
    You said:
    "While Dem's were certainly responsible for the massive escalation in Vietnam, and for the mistakes and judgments that killed tens of thousands of our own sons and hundreds of thousands of civilians, the honor of starting that war actually rests with Eisenhower. "



    I am just setting the record straight, sorry if the facts are an inconvenience.
    I know you are used to just bloviating until the opposition gives up.

    You ever notice how every now and then you run into a guy that won't lay down for you???

    I'm that guy!!

    I will stand by the facts, write as many paragraphs as you wish, they won't change.
    If no troops were there, then none get killed!!
    Last edited by road kill; 10-03-2009 at 09:24 AM.
    Stan b & Elvis

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    If one could think of when the USA got involved in Viet Nam by the direction of President Harry Truman (Democrat).....it would be 1950.

    FACT!!

    SPIN baby, SPIN!!
    Most American wars have obvious starting points or precipitating causes: the Battles of Lexington and Concord in 1775, the capture of Fort Sumter in 1861, the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, and the North Korean invasion of South Korea in June 1950, for example. But there was no fixed beginning for the U.S. war in Vietnam. The United States entered that war incrementally, in a series of steps between 1950 and 1965. In May 1950, President Harry S. Truman authorized a modest program of economic and military aid to the French, who were fighting to retain control of their Indochina colony, including Laos and Cambodia as well as Vietnam. When the Vietnamese Nationalist (and Communist-led) Vietminh army defeated French forces at Dienbienphu in 1954, the French were compelled to accede to the creation of a Communist Vietnam north of the 17th parallel while leaving a non-Communist entity south of that line. The United States refused to accept the arrangement. The administration of President Dwight D. Eisenhower undertook instead to build a nation from the spurious political entity that was South Vietnam by fabricating a government there, taking over control from the French, dispatching military advisers to train a South Vietnamese army, and unleashing the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) to conduct psychological warfare against the North.






    What I found on Truman was that he authorized a modest program of economic and military aid to the FRENCH. It did not say he sent troops to Viet Nam. The United States entered the war to prevent a communist takeover of South Vietnam as part of their wider strategy of containment. Military advisors arrived beginning in 1950.

    http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/vietnam/causes.htm

    Show me your version of when and where we sent troops into viet nam. And please provide some references like I just did.
    Last edited by Roger Perry; 10-03-2009 at 10:12 AM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member subroc's Avatar
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    Kennedy started the war. Up until his escalation, the force was made up of advisors numbering several hundred. Kennedy increased that number to thousands.
    subroc

    Article [I.]
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Article [II.]
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  7. #27
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    If one could think of when the USA got involved in Viet Nam by the direction of President Harry Truman (Democrat).....it would be 1950.

    FACT!!

    SPIN baby, SPIN!!
    Fact: Truman authorized $15 million in military aid to the French in 1950 to assist them in their efforts to regain control of their colonial dominion over Vietnam.

    Fact: When Eisenhower became President, he greatly expanded aid to the French to the extent that by 1954, the US was providing 80% of all of France's munitions and equipment with aid totaling $3 billion.

    Fact: In 1954 the French threw in the towel following a humiliating defeat at Dien Bien Phu. Negotiations began involving France, the US, England, Canada, representatives of the North Vietnamese, and others. This resulted in the Geneva Accord under which France gave up all claims on its former territory. During an interim period, the country was partitioned with the French supported government controling the south and Ho Chi Minh's government controlling the north. Elections were set for 1956 to elect a government that would then control the entire country. Little question existed in anyone's mind that the north would win the election. All countries involved signed the Geneva Accord with one exception -- the US. The Eisenhower administration acknowledged the Accord and committed its support for a reunified Vietnam. However, it refused to sign the agreement. As the French wthdrew, the US began providing military assistance directly to the Bao Dai/Diem government in the south, representing the first time that the US provided direct support to one of the indigenous parties to the Vietnamese dispute as distinct from providing aid to the French.

    Fact: In November 1955, Eisenhower sent a force of less than 1000 advisers to support the South Vietnamese in their determination to reject the elections required by the Geneva Accord. While Eisenhower avoided committing more resources to the impending war effort the direction of US policy had been set.

    Based on this, I believe that my assertion that the US involvement in the Vietnam War began under Eisenhower. However, you are obviously free to believe whatever you want. I'm assumng that you will not be returning to school again, so you don't need to worry about what grade the teacher might assign your answer.

  8. #28
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Fact: Truman authorized $15 million in military aid to the French in 1950 to assist them in their efforts to regain control of their colonial dominion over Vietnam.

    Fact: When Eisenhower became President, he greatly expanded aid to the French to the extent that by 1954, the US was providing 80% of all of France's munitions and equipment with aid totaling $3 billion.

    Fact: In 1954 the French threw in the towel following a humiliating defeat at Dien Bien Phu. Negotiations began involving France, the US, England, Canada, representatives of the North Vietnamese, and others. This resulted in the Geneva Accord under which France gave up all claims on its former territory. During an interim period, the country was partitioned with the French supported government controling the south and Ho Chi Minh's government controlling the north. Elections were set for 1956 to elect a government that would then control the entire country. Little question existed in anyone's mind that the north would win the election. All countries involved signed the Geneva Accord with one exception -- the US. The Eisenhower administration acknowledged the Accord and committed its support for a reunified Vietnam. However, it refused to sign the agreement. As the French wthdrew, the US began providing military assistance directly to the Bao Dai/Diem government in the south, representing the first time that the US provided direct support to one of the indigenous parties to the Vietnamese dispute as distinct from providing aid to the French.

    Fact: In November 1955, Eisenhower sent a force of less than 1000 advisers to support the South Vietnamese in their determination to reject the elections required by the Geneva Accord. While Eisenhower avoided committing more resources to the impending war effort the direction of US policy had been set.

    Based on this, I believe that my assertion that the US involvement in the Vietnam War began under Eisenhower. However, you are obviously free to believe whatever you want. I'm assumng that you will not be returning to school again, so you don't need to worry about what grade the teacher might assign your answer.
    You are WRONG!!

    FACT; Harry S. Truman sent the first US troops to Viet Nam in 1950.
    You KNOW that, and stubbornly will not admit it.

    Your credibility has been exposed!!

    Aren't you the one that called another poster a "blowhard?"

    "In January 1950, the communist nations, led by the People's Republic of China (PRC), recognized the Viet Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam as the government of Vietnam. Non-Communist nations recognized the French-backed State of Vietnam in Saigon led by former Emperor Bao Dai the following month.[29] The outbreak of the Korean War in June 1950 convinced many Washington policymakers that the war in Indochina was an example of communist expansionism directed by the Kremlin.[30]

    PRC military advisors began assisting the Viet Minh in July 1950.[31] PRC weapons, expertise, and laborers transformed the Viet Minh from a guerrilla force into a regular army.[32] In September, the U.S. created a Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG) to screen French requests for aid, advise on strategy, and train Vietnamese soldiers."

    "Indochina
    For more details on this topic, see First Indochina War.
    United States' involvement in Indochina widened during the Truman administration. On V-J Day 1945, Vietnamese Communist leader Ho Chi Minh declared independence from France, but the U.S. announced its support of restoring French power. In 1950, Ho again declared Vietnamese independence, which was recognized by Communist China and the Soviet Union. Ho controlled a remote territory along the Chinese border, while France controlled the remainder. Truman's "containment policy" called for opposition to Communist expansion, and led the U.S. to continue to recognize French rule, support the French client government, and increase aid to Vietnam. However, a basic dispute emerged: the Americans wanted a strong and independent Vietnam, while the French cared little about containing China but instead wanted to suppress local nationalism and integrate Indochina into the French Union."

    Maybe you should go back to school, oh wait, you just did!!


    Harry S. Truman (Democrat) git the USA involved in Viet Nam.
    Troops through the MAAG program.
    Money & resources through the Indochina Communist Containment Program.

    I'm here to help!!
    Stan b & Elvis

  9. #29
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by road kill View Post
    You are WRONG!!

    FACT; Harry S. Truman sent the first US troops to Viet Nam in 1950.
    You KNOW that, and stubbornly will not admit it.

    Your credibility has been exposed!!

    Aren't you the one that called another poster a "blowhard?"

    "In January 1950, the communist nations, led by the People's Republic of China (PRC), recognized the Viet Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam as the government of Vietnam. Non-Communist nations recognized the French-backed State of Vietnam in Saigon led by former Emperor Bao Dai the following month.[29] The outbreak of the Korean War in June 1950 convinced many Washington policymakers that the war in Indochina was an example of communist expansionism directed by the Kremlin.[30]

    PRC military advisors began assisting the Viet Minh in July 1950.[31] PRC weapons, expertise, and laborers transformed the Viet Minh from a guerrilla force into a regular army.[32] In September, the U.S. created a Military Assistance and Advisory Group (MAAG) to screen French requests for aid, advise on strategy, and train Vietnamese soldiers."

    "Indochina
    For more details on this topic, see First Indochina War.
    United States' involvement in Indochina widened during the Truman administration. On V-J Day 1945, Vietnamese Communist leader Ho Chi Minh declared independence from France, but the U.S. announced its support of restoring French power. In 1950, Ho again declared Vietnamese independence, which was recognized by Communist China and the Soviet Union. Ho controlled a remote territory along the Chinese border, while France controlled the remainder. Truman's "containment policy" called for opposition to Communist expansion, and led the U.S. to continue to recognize French rule, support the French client government, and increase aid to Vietnam. However, a basic dispute emerged: the Americans wanted a strong and independent Vietnam, while the French cared little about containing China but instead wanted to suppress local nationalism and integrate Indochina into the French Union."

    Maybe you should go back to school, oh wait, you just did!!


    Harry S. Truman (Democrat) git the USA involved in Viet Nam.
    Troops through the MAAG program.
    Money & resources through the Indochina Communist Containment Program.

    I'm here to help!!
    Note the timeline:

    "In September 1950, US President Harry Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to Vietnam to assist the French in the First Indochina war. The President claimed they were not sent as combat troops, but to supervise the use of $10 million worth of US military equipment to support the French in their effort to fight the Viet Minh forces.


    "The French Army however, was resistant to take U.S. advice, and would not allow the Vietnamese army to be trained to use the new equipment, because it went against French policy. They were supposed to not only defeat enemy forces but to solidify themselves as a colonial power, and they could not do this with a Vietnamese Army. French commanders were so reluctant to accept advice that would weaken their time-honored colonial role that they got in the way of the various attempts by the MAAG to observe where the equipment was being sent and how it was being used. Eventually the French decided to cooperate, but at that point it was too late.

    "In 1954 the commanding general of French forces in Indochina, General Henri Navarre, allowed the United States to send liaison officers to Vietnamese forces. But it was too late, because of the siege and fall of Dien Bien Phu in the spring. As stated by the Geneva Accords, France was forced to surrender the northern half of Vietnam and to withdraw from South Vietnam by April 1956.


    "On 1955-02-12 at a conference in Washington, D.C., between officials of the U.S. State Department and the French Minister of Overseas Affairs, it was agreed that all U.S. aid would be funneled directly to South Vietnam and that all major military responsibilities would be transferred from the French to the MAAG under the command of Lieutenant General John O'Daniel. A problem arose however, because the French Expeditionary Force had to be departed from South Vietnam in April 1956 as directed by the Accords. To fill the void of lost French soldiers, the MAAG mission was increased to 740 men by the end of June."


    Also, from my response to your first post about Truman's actions:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by road kill
    Yeah, yeah, but my question is this:
    Didn't Harry Truman send the first US troops to Viet Nam in 1950??

    BTW--Rhetorical question.
    (that means I already know the answer, and so does Mr. Yardley)


    And I replied:

    "How is that relevant to what President started our involvement in what became the Vietnam War. We sent military ships to Japan in the 19th century. Does that mean that we started World War II and that the bombing of Pearl Harbor was simply a response? What Truman did was actually done as part of the Korean War and was strictly limited to support for the French efforts to retain control of a colony. The decision to undermine the Geneva Accord and prevent elections from being held in Vietnam was a decision made by President Eisenhower because of his belief that any election would give power over all of Vietnam to the government in the the north. and that Indochina and the rest of Asia might then fall to Communism."

    I'm beginning to think that you are not only fact challenged, but may have a little trouble reading. Where did I say that no troops were sent by Truman? In case you don't know, Eisenhower became President in January 1953.
    Last edited by YardleyLabs; 10-04-2009 at 06:45 AM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member road kill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Note the timeline:

    "In September 1950, US President Harry Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to Vietnam to assist the French in the First Indochina war. The President claimed they were not sent as combat troops, but to supervise the use of $10 million worth of US military equipment to support the French in their effort to fight the Viet Minh forces.


    "The French Army however, was resistant to take U.S. advice, and would not allow the Vietnamese army to be trained to use the new equipment, because it went against French policy. They were supposed to not only defeat enemy forces but to solidify themselves as a colonial power, and they could not do this with a Vietnamese Army. French commanders were so reluctant to accept advice that would weaken their time-honored colonial role that they got in the way of the various attempts by the MAAG to observe where the equipment was being sent and how it was being used. Eventually the French decided to cooperate, but at that point it was too late.

    "In 1954 the commanding general of French forces in Indochina, General Henri Navarre, allowed the United States to send liaison officers to Vietnamese forces. But it was too late, because of the siege and fall of Dien Bien Phu in the spring. As stated by the Geneva Accords, France was forced to surrender the northern half of Vietnam and to withdraw from South Vietnam by April 1956.


    "On 1955-02-12 at a conference in Washington, D.C., between officials of the U.S. State Department and the French Minister of Overseas Affairs, it was agreed that all U.S. aid would be funneled directly to South Vietnam and that all major military responsibilities would be transferred from the French to the MAAG under the command of Lieutenant General John O'Daniel. A problem arose however, because the French Expeditionary Force had to be departed from South Vietnam in April 1956 as directed by the Accords. To fill the void of lost French soldiers, the MAAG mission was increased to 740 men by the end of June."


    Also, from my response to your first post about Truman's actions:


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by road kill
    Yeah, yeah, but my question is this:
    Didn't Harry Truman send the first US troops to Viet Nam in 1950??

    BTW--Rhetorical question.
    (that means I already know the answer, and so does Mr. Yardley)


    And I replied:

    "How is that relevant to what President started our involvement in what became the Vietnam War. We sent military ships to Japan in the 19th century. Does that mean that we started World War II and that the bombing of Pearl Harbor was simply a response? What Truman did was actually done as part of the Korean War and was strictly limited to support for the French efforts to retain control of a colony. The decision to undermine the Geneva Accord and prevent elections from being held in Vietnam was a decision made by President Eisenhower because of his belief that any election would give power over all of Vietnam to the government in the the north. and that Indochina and the rest of Asia might then fall to Communism."

    I'm beginning to think that you are not only fact challenged, but may have a little trouble reading. Where did I say that no troops were sent by Truman? In case you don't know, Eisenhower became President in January 1953.
    "I'm beginning to think"

    That's encouraging!!

    You KNOW when the first troops went to Viet Nam and won't admit it.

    "In September 1950, US President Harry Truman sent the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG) to Vietnam"


    It's who you are, it's what you do!!

    Now, why don't you call someone a "blow hard" and issue some personal insults about my intelligence?

    Is that all you got?
    Last edited by road kill; 10-04-2009 at 06:55 AM.
    Stan b & Elvis

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