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Thread: Democrats, are you happy?

  1. #11
    Senior Member cotts135's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvalab View Post
    Democrats and Republicans are the same party.

    Doesn't anybody get that yet???

    Quick and to the point but ooooooooh so true.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Ain't it funny how those who constantly bash the previous administration can't come up with one positive thing the Democrats have done? I'm not saying that nothing positive has been accomplished. I'm not saying that I'm a Bush-lover. I just find it interesting that if you take away the playbook and try to corner them into naming one thing that the Dems have accomplished that makes them proud, all you hear is crickets.
    Matt McKenzie

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    "It is better to own a $50,000 dog and have an old truck and crummy equipment than to own $50,000 worth of new equipment and a crummy dog..." EdA

  3. #13
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Why not, it's been three months since this same topic was last introduced....

    1. Iraq: Following a plan announced during the campaign and roundly condemned by Republicans, the Obama administration has managed a wind down of the Iraq war that looks to be on schedule for withdrawing forces next year and has already resulted in both a shift away from front line fighting responsibilities and a reduction in the total commitment of American forces.

    2. Secured passage and has implemented economic stimulus programs that have reduced taxes for most Americans and resulted in massive, non-recurring expenditures that have, according to most economic models, increased economic activity by 2-3% and helped to improve the economic disaster that we were facing a year ago. This program will be argued about for years to come. My personal belief (no one can prove anything yet) is that it is the only reason the DOW is now around 9500 instead of the 6500 that some on this forum and elsewhere were projecting. Is the recovery done? No. Is the program helping? I believe it is.

    3. Substantially increased the force size in Afghanistan and refocused on this mission which had become an orphan in the last administration. The administration is now deciding how far to extend this commitment. However, the fact that we are focused on it at all and not simply coasting toward defeat as we were 12 months ago, is because of the actions of this administration.

    4. It is too early to say that the administration saved the US auto industry. However, I suspect that the only reason that GM and Chrysler are around today in any form is because of the actions of the administration.

    5. The administration is still actively pursuing passage of health insurance reform legislation consistent with what was promised during the campaign. It appears likely that something substantial will be passed, although it will take several months. I believe our country will be strengthened by this.

    6. While it is too soon to see what benefits, if any, will result, the administration has dramatically improved perceptions of the US worldwide si that more countries are willing to work with us on difficult issues. There have been some signs of this is dealings with Iran and the Palestine/Israel conflict.

    Beyond these "big" issues, the administration has made progress in a number of smaller areas including a significant increase (2 million acres) in preserved wildlands, elimination of the ban on Federal financing for research using new strains of rfetal stem cells, an elmination of the Federal ban on foreign aid and Aids prevention assistance in foreign countries for programs that include any discussion of abortion in their materials, etc.

  4. #14
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    In addition, there has been some badly needed work on the country's infrastructure. The county's transportation system regardless of modality is on the verge of collapse.
    Zeus

    I don't want to feed an ugly dog!

  5. #15
    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Why not, it's been three months since this same topic was last introduced....

    1. Iraq: Following a plan announced during the campaign and roundly condemned by Republicans, the Obama administration has managed a wind down of the Iraq war that looks to be on schedule for withdrawing forces next year and has already resulted in both a shift away from front line fighting responsibilities and a reduction in the total commitment of American forces.

    2. Secured passage and has implemented economic stimulus programs that have reduced taxes for most Americans and resulted in massive, non-recurring expenditures that have, according to most economic models, increased economic activity by 2-3% and helped to improve the economic disaster that we were facing a year ago. This program will be argued about for years to come. My personal belief (no one can prove anything yet) is that it is the only reason the DOW is now around 9500 instead of the 6500 that some on this forum and elsewhere were projecting. Is the recovery done? No. Is the program helping? I believe it is.

    3. Substantially increased the force size in Afghanistan and refocused on this mission which had become an orphan in the last administration. The administration is now deciding how far to extend this commitment. However, the fact that we are focused on it at all and not simply coasting toward defeat as we were 12 months ago, is because of the actions of this administration.

    4. It is too early to say that the administration saved the US auto industry. However, I suspect that the only reason that GM and Chrysler are around today in any form is because of the actions of the administration.

    5. The administration is still actively pursuing passage of health insurance reform legislation consistent with what was promised during the campaign. It appears likely that something substantial will be passed, although it will take several months. I believe our country will be strengthened by this.

    6. While it is too soon to see what benefits, if any, will result, the administration has dramatically improved perceptions of the US worldwide si that more countries are willing to work with us on difficult issues. There have been some signs of this is dealings with Iran and the Palestine/Israel conflict.

    Beyond these "big" issues, the administration has made progress in a number of smaller areas including a significant increase (2 million acres) in preserved wildlands, elimination of the ban on Federal financing for research using new strains of rfetal stem cells, an elmination of the Federal ban on foreign aid and Aids prevention assistance in foreign countries for programs that include any discussion of abortion in their materials, etc.
    Jeff,
    As usual, you come through with a well thought out response to the question. Thanks for attacking it directly rather than deflecting. Although my perspective is different on most of these, the only ones I won't give you are 5 which even by your discription hasn't been accomplished yet and 6 which is just too ambiguous to call. Perception worldwide has no real meaning. Are we talking about our allies? Our enemies? Countries that don't count either way? The popular opinion of the people of those countries or the leadership with whom we must deal? I'm just not buying it.
    As far as the stimulus and the auto bailout, I didn't agree with that path when the Bush Administration started it and I didn't agree with it when the Obama Adminstration continued. History may prove me wrong. Or it may prove nothing. But it is a significant accomplishment that many see as positvie.
    As far as Iraq goes, I don't know what the new Administration changed. It seems to me they kept the same SECDEF and kept the same plan and it proved to be effective.
    Afganistan. I don't have a clue what the right answer is there. Most of us don't understand that Afganistan is not really a nation in the way that most of us understand the word and that an outcome that is perfectly reasonable when dealing with Iraq makes absolutely no sense when speaking of Afganistan. I believe that there was no other option but to invade Afganistan to remove the Taliban from power when we did, but I don't know what a reasonable goal is for us to call the final outcome a "success". It seems that we've been doing for the last few years hasn't been working. Hopefully throwing more manpower and firepower at the problem will accomplish something we can all be proud of. We'll see.
    Matt McKenzie

    It takes as long as it takes. Sometimes longer.

    "It is better to own a $50,000 dog and have an old truck and crummy equipment than to own $50,000 worth of new equipment and a crummy dog..." EdA

  6. #16
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hookset View Post
    Jeff,
    As usual, you come through with a well thought out response to the question. Thanks for attacking it directly rather than deflecting. Although my perspective is different on most of these, the only ones I won't give you are 5 which even by your discription hasn't been accomplished yet and 6 which is just too ambiguous to call. Perception worldwide has no real meaning. Are we talking about our allies? Our enemies? Countries that don't count either way? The popular opinion of the people of those countries or the leadership with whom we must deal? I'm just not buying it.
    As far as the stimulus and the auto bailout, I didn't agree with that path when the Bush Administration started it and I didn't agree with it when the Obama Adminstration continued. History may prove me wrong. Or it may prove nothing. But it is a significant accomplishment that many see as positvie.
    As far as Iraq goes, I don't know what the new Administration changed. It seems to me they kept the same SECDEF and kept the same plan and it proved to be effective.
    Afganistan. I don't have a clue what the right answer is there. Most of us don't understand that Afganistan is not really a nation in the way that most of us understand the word and that an outcome that is perfectly reasonable when dealing with Iraq makes absolutely no sense when speaking of Afganistan. I believe that there was no other option but to invade Afganistan to remove the Taliban from power when we did, but I don't know what a reasonable goal is for us to call the final outcome a "success". It seems that we've been doing for the last few years hasn't been working. Hopefully throwing more manpower and firepower at the problem will accomplish something we can all be proud of. We'll see.
    I certainly won't argue 5 and 6, but change starts with movement and 9 months is not very long to see results. On Iraq, it is interesting that even as McCain was attacking Obama's position during the campaign, that Bush moved to embrace the Obama position, reversing his earlier stands against a defined time schedule for withdrawal. That and the appointment of Gates were among Bush's best moves in office. In evaluating the progress and credit attributable to Obama, I would look at what was considered reasonable and possible in the first half of last year when Obama was being virtually accused of treason for his position on Iraq. From The Weekly Standard, for example, we have the following from April 2008:

    "On the front page of today's Washington Post we can see the outline of what may become a devastating narrative for the Obama administration and the left. Yesterday's brutal attacks in Iraq, which left more than 80 dead, are tied directly to President Obama's push for a hasty withdrawal:"

    And so, the question is did Obama continue Bush's policies, or did Bush move toward Obama's position even as McCain's position hardened? In either case. I believe that even if Obama's role is simply one of managing an orderly withdrawal, that this is a good accomplishment given the many ways things could get completely screwed up.

  7. #17
    Senior Member TXduckdog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Why not, it's been three months since this same topic was last introduced....

    1. Iraq: Following a plan announced during the campaign and roundly condemned by Republicans, the Obama administration has managed a wind down of the Iraq war that looks to be on schedule for withdrawing forces next year and has already resulted in both a shift away from front line fighting responsibilities and a reduction in the total commitment of American forces.

    2. Secured passage and has implemented economic stimulus programs that have reduced taxes for most Americans and resulted in massive, non-recurring expenditures that have, according to most economic models, increased economic activity by 2-3% and helped to improve the economic disaster that we were facing a year ago. This program will be argued about for years to come. My personal belief (no one can prove anything yet) is that it is the only reason the DOW is now around 9500 instead of the 6500 that some on this forum and elsewhere were projecting. Is the recovery done? No. Is the program helping? I believe it is.

    3. Substantially increased the force size in Afghanistan and refocused on this mission which had become an orphan in the last administration. The administration is now deciding how far to extend this commitment. However, the fact that we are focused on it at all and not simply coasting toward defeat as we were 12 months ago, is because of the actions of this administration.

    4. It is too early to say that the administration saved the US auto industry. However, I suspect that the only reason that GM and Chrysler are around today in any form is because of the actions of the administration.

    5. The administration is still actively pursuing passage of health insurance reform legislation consistent with what was promised during the campaign. It appears likely that something substantial will be passed, although it will take several months. I believe our country will be strengthened by this.

    6. While it is too soon to see what benefits, if any, will result, the administration has dramatically improved perceptions of the US worldwide si that more countries are willing to work with us on difficult issues. There have been some signs of this is dealings with Iran and the Palestine/Israel conflict.

    Beyond these "big" issues, the administration has made progress in a number of smaller areas including a significant increase (2 million acres) in preserved wildlands, elimination of the ban on Federal financing for research using new strains of rfetal stem cells, an elmination of the Federal ban on foreign aid and Aids prevention assistance in foreign countries for programs that include any discussion of abortion in their materials, etc.

    You are, true to nature....optimistic beyond belief.

    #1....the current policy in Iraq was implemented in the previous admin...managed a wind down....shift from front line fighting....all as a result of previous admin. The current admin has done nothing substantial in Iraq. Unless you consider allowing the strategy in place to carry itself out.

    #2....passed the single largest entitlement package is history with NO evidence of an ability to pay for it...except tax, tax, tax. Unemployment took yet another upward tick despite admin assurances it was going down. The DOW number is no realistic evidence of economic growth. The stimulus package passed under this admin has saddled this country with unprecedented debt....with NO means of repaying it.

    #3.....substantially increased the force size in Afghan.....when did this happen...since January? Refocused on this commitment? The command structure has not changed....coasting to defeat...since when?

    #4...after caving to UAW pressures.....i dare say, GM and Chrysler would have emerged with new plans despite any stimulus package. Saturn....the singular success story of recent history coming out of Detroit is DEAD. Is that a good thing?

    #5...the only thing substantial passed in this legislation is governmental control over every aspect of health care...this is NOT a good thing.

    #6....the French and British are highly pi$$ed off at us for the bungling of the Iranian nuclear negotiations and the Russians are laughing their collective butts off. The Iranians are thumbing their noses at us and for the progress in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict....surely your joking.

    How about the big issues of drilling in our own territorial waters to achieve true energy independance. How about telling environmentalists to shove off and restore the farming in the cental valley of california?

    Nice try Jeff.....
    Train the dog, the ribbons will take care of themselves.

  8. #18
    Senior Member zeus3925's Avatar
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    No amount of drilling in the territory of the US is going to give us energy independence--we have pretty well sucked her dry.

    As for the Israeli/ Palestinian issue the guys before ignored the whole thing and then tried to push a peace settlement in the last six months of their reign. They came up dry.

    The UAW's pension plan was in a state of collapse. They made several concessions to keep the pension fund afloat. If those companies fail, the will union inherit nothing but a bag of dead IOU's. The reorganization is an unmitigated disaster for the UAW. The union has made big give backs on wages and conditions of employment. They have lost tens of thousands of members-- permanently. Benefiting from all this--I don't think so !
    Last edited by zeus3925; 10-04-2009 at 10:57 PM.
    Zeus

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  9. #19
    Senior Member YardleyLabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TXduckdog View Post
    You are, true to nature....optimistic beyond belief.

    #1....the current policy in Iraq was implemented in the previous admin...managed a wind down....shift from front line fighting....all as a result of previous admin. The current admin has done nothing substantial in Iraq. Unless you consider allowing the strategy in place to carry itself out.

    #2....passed the single largest entitlement package is history with NO evidence of an ability to pay for it...except tax, tax, tax. Unemployment took yet another upward tick despite admin assurances it was going down. The DOW number is no realistic evidence of economic growth. The stimulus package passed under this admin has saddled this country with unprecedented debt....with NO means of repaying it.

    #3.....substantially increased the force size in Afghan.....when did this happen...since January? Refocused on this commitment? The command structure has not changed....coasting to defeat...since when?

    #4...after caving to UAW pressures.....i dare say, GM and Chrysler would have emerged with new plans despite any stimulus package. Saturn....the singular success story of recent history coming out of Detroit is DEAD. Is that a good thing?

    #5...the only thing substantial passed in this legislation is governmental control over every aspect of health care...this is NOT a good thing.

    #6....the French and British are highly pi$$ed off at us for the bungling of the Iranian nuclear negotiations and the Russians are laughing their collective butts off. The Iranians are thumbing their noses at us and for the progress in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict....surely your joking.

    How about the big issues of drilling in our own territorial waters to achieve true energy independance. How about telling environmentalists to shove off and restore the farming in the cental valley of california?

    Nice try Jeff.....
    Actually, I think the question was what were Democrats happy about, not what were conservatives angry about.

    #1 - Actually, the prior administration shifted to Obama's policy articulated during the campaign and initially attacked by the administration. The change in administration position was a huge embarrassment to the McCain campaign which stuck by its guns in opposing any form of withdrawal timetable.
    #3 - Yes, the force has been increased by over 20,000 since January (actually 21000 were authorized, but not all have been move in yet). The strategy was radically changed from one of withdrawal to a limited number of safe zones to confrontation of the enemy on a much broader scale (explaining the increase in casualties). The command structure was changed with the appointment of McChrystal.

    #5 - Actually nothing at all has been passed yet.

    On the others, we'll see.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gerry Clinchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YardleyLabs View Post
    Actually, I think the question was what were Democrats happy about, not what were conservatives angry about.

    #1 - Actually, the prior administration shifted to Obama's policy articulated during the campaign and initially attacked by the administration. The change in administration position was a huge embarrassment to the McCain campaign which stuck by its guns in opposing any form of withdrawal timetable.
    #3 - Yes, the force has been increased by over 20,000 since January (actually 21000 were authorized, but not all have been move in yet). The strategy was radically changed from one of withdrawal to a limited number of safe zones to confrontation of the enemy on a much broader scale (explaining the increase in casualties). The command structure was changed with the appointment of McChrystal.

    #5 - Actually nothing at all has been passed yet.

    On the others, we'll see.

    #1 Wasn't a big issue of the campaign debates over whether the "surge" in Iraq was of any use? At the time of the debates, the surgein Iraq was yielding results. The other issue was that O insisted that a similar surge in A'stan could not be substantiated just because it had been successful in Iraq. I had mentioned at the time that more troops in A'stan didn't necessarily mean that the mode of implementing those troops would be identical to the way they were implemented in Iraq. Essentially, that now seems to be the way it has turned out. A need for considerably more troops, but the use of those troops in a different way than in Iraq.

    It also seems that part of O's decrease in polls has to do with the fact that he just might have shifted toward the need for a "surge" in A'stan.

    I'd say that "the view from the top" may be different from the view from the campaign trail.

    #3 See #1. O's original position was strongly stating that securing A'stan was important; while saying that a troop surge was not the answer. Now, he may face the fact that he was not correct in that assessment.

    We don't know what McCain would have done, although we do know that he was in favor of troop strength in both Iraq and A'stan.

    The fact that McCain might not have agreed with Bush is a bad thing? I don't see that as an "embarrassment" to McCain ... simply a difference of opinion between him and the sitting administration at the time.

    I think that the sitting administration was already changing its position on the importance of A'stan as well. So, maybe O's emphasis on the importance of A'stan was not so different from what was developing on that issue ... except that in the campaign he didn't believe more troops were the answer. OTOH, I see an inconsistency there ... how do you conclude that A'stan was "neglected"; believe that should be "fixed"; and not expect that make take more troop strength? Again, the "job" of the troops might be different, but not sure how you escape the need for more of them to accomplish the task. I got the impression that O's "plan" would be to re-allocate troop strength from Iraq to A'stan.
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